FS7: 7Q owner with Extention unit to buy or not to buy

Mitch, it is frustrating that, as of now, only the Sony F55 offers true XAVC 4K: 4096 x 2160 at 23.98p, 25p, 29.97p, 50p, 59.94p or (UHD) XAVC QFHD: 3840 x 2160 at 23.98p, 25p, 29.97p, 50p, 59.94p. My new FS7 offers the XAVC (UHD) 3840 x 2160 for 4k (aside from raw and the other standard HD flavors). I purchased the XDCA back thinking I could use my R5 recorder with it, but it turns out I need the Sony HXR-IFR5 Interface to make the AXS-R5 a standalone unit to accept the 3g-SDI RAW input which happens to be priced the same as a 7Q+. Sony hasn't announced any plans so far to release a firmware upgrade that would enable internal 4K XAVC 4096 x 2160. Is there any chance C-D has this possibility on the horizon even if the input is RAW coming from the FS7 and convert the signal to XAVC 4096 x 2160 ??
 
Jim Anderson said:
Mitch, it is frustrating that, as of now, only the Sony F55 offers true XAVC 4K: 4096 x 2160 at 23.98p, 25p, 29.97p, 50p, 59.94p or (UHD) XAVC QFHD: 3840 x 2160 at 23.98p, 25p, 29.97p, 50p, 59.94p. My new FS7 offers the XAVC (UHD) 3840 x 2160 for 4k (aside from raw and the other standard HD flavors). I purchased the XDCA back thinking I could use my R5 recorder with it, but it turns out I need the Sony HXR-IFR5 Interface to make the AXS-R5 a standalone unit to accept the 3g-SDI RAW input which happens to be priced the same as a 7Q+. Sony hasn't announced any plans so far to release a firmware upgrade that would enable internal 4K XAVC 4096 x 2160. Is there any chance C-D has this possibility on the horizon even if the input is RAW coming from the FS7 and convert the signal to XAVC 4096 x 2160 ??
Click to expand...

Actually, my understanding is that we will get 4096x2160 internal XAVC in "early 2015" in the form of a free firmware update. I've seen this said multiple times, but for a Sony source:
http://www.sony.co.uk/pro/product/b...gital-motion-picture-camera/pxw-fs7/overview/

I personally would bet the O7Q(+) won't be doing XAVC encoding, but Mitch is around somewhere, I'm sure...
 
Okay thanks. Good to know. It seems Sony will have a good amount of firmware and hardware releases this month for the F5 and FS7 assuming they are on schedule.
 
Jim Anderson said:
Mitch, it is frustrating that, as of now, only the Sony F55 offers true XAVC 4K: 4096 x 2160 at 23.98p, 25p, 29.97p, 50p, 59.94p or (UHD) XAVC QFHD: 3840 x 2160 at 23.98p, 25p, 29.97p, 50p, 59.94p. My new FS7 offers the XAVC (UHD) 3840 x 2160 for 4k (aside from raw and the other standard HD flavors). I purchased the XDCA back thinking I could use my R5 recorder with it, but it turns out I need the Sony HXR-IFR5 Interface to make the AXS-R5 a standalone unit to accept the 3g-SDI RAW input which happens to be priced the same as a 7Q+. Sony hasn't announced any plans so far to release a firmware upgrade that would enable internal 4K XAVC 4096 x 2160. Is there any chance C-D has this possibility on the horizon even if the input is RAW coming from the FS7 and convert the signal to XAVC 4096 x 2160 ??
Click to expand...

Jim, are you saying that you need both the Sony HXR-IFR5 and the XDCA back to record RAW to the R5 recorder from the FS7? Thanks.
 
Yes. Just like the fs700, the fs7 requires the ifr5 to record to axs5. Makes the odyssey much more attractive a solution

Ned
 
nsoltz said:
Yes. Just like the fs700, the fs7 requires the ifr5 to record to axs5. Makes the odyssey much more attractive a solution

Ned
Click to expand...

Thanks Ned. I agree -- Odyssey is looking much more attractive. Would love to have compressed RAW and also lower bit rate ProRes though to save on SSD costs.
 
Jim Anderson said:
Mitch, it is frustrating that, as of now, only the Sony F55 offers true XAVC 4K: 4096 x 2160 at 23.98p, 25p, 29.97p, 50p, 59.94p or (UHD) XAVC QFHD: 3840 x 2160 at 23.98p, 25p, 29.97p, 50p, 59.94p. My new FS7 offers the XAVC (UHD) 3840 x 2160 for 4k (aside from raw and the other standard HD flavors). I purchased the XDCA back thinking I could use my R5 recorder with it, but it turns out I need the Sony HXR-IFR5 Interface to make the AXS-R5 a standalone unit to accept the 3g-SDI RAW input which happens to be priced the same as a 7Q+. Sony hasn't announced any plans so far to release a firmware upgrade that would enable internal 4K XAVC 4096 x 2160. Is there any chance C-D has this possibility on the horizon even if the input is RAW coming from the FS7 and convert the signal to XAVC 4096 x 2160 ??
Click to expand...
At this time there are no plans to include XAVC recording on the Odyssey7Q or Odyssey7Q+.
 
skimmel said:
Jim, are you saying that you need both the Sony HXR-IFR5 and the XDCA back to record RAW to the R5 recorder from the FS7? Thanks.
Click to expand...
The HXR-IFR5 is indeed required to marry the R5 recorder to the XDCA accessory back's RAW output. I believe the add on cost to a base model FS7 is something like $12,000. The FS7 with the accessory back outputs FS RAW just like the FS700 does. The IFR5 is required to transform FS RAW into the form of RAW Sony utilizes on the F5 and F55, which is what the R5 is designed to record. The R5 also needs a controller device, as the F5 & F55 control it when it is mounted to those cameras.
 
skimmel said:
Thanks Ned. I agree -- Odyssey is looking much more attractive. Would love to have compressed RAW and also lower bit rate ProRes though to save on SSD costs.
Click to expand...
We are actively working on different compressed recording formats, including lower bitrate codecs. These will be made available at no additional cost via a free firmware update.
 
Mitch Gross said:
The HXR-IFR5 is indeed required to marry the R5 recorder to the XDCA accessory back's RAW output. I believe the add on cost to a base model FS7 is something like $12,000. The FS7 with the accessory back outputs FS RAW just like the FS700 does. The IFR5 is required to transform FS RAW into the form of RAW Sony utilizes on the F5 and F55, which is what the R5 is designed to record. The R5 also needs a controller device, as the F5 & F55 control it when it is mounted to those cameras.
Click to expand...

The insanity of Sony. We would need not one, but TWO accessory units to record to their RAW recorder?
This is just plain poor thinking. It is add-as-you-go technology rather than a properly conceptualized design.
Not to mention being an ergonomic nightmare.
 
No Sony insanity here-- just keeping the camera to a lower price point. If you want a camera to output directly to the AXS-R5, then buy the F5 or F55. There is still a minimum of $8000 or so savings between FS7+IFR5 and the F5 + viewfinder. As Mitch notes, the signal from the FS7 or 700 needs to be converted to the raw format recorded by the AXS-R5. That would add $2000 or so to the camera, which you can achieve either via adding the cost to the camera or making an accessory available. I have shot the FS700 to the IXR5+AXSR-5 as well as to the 7Q. I completely agree that the Sony solution is an ergonomic nightmare handheld but it makes little difference on a tripod. Personally I would rather pay $8000 for the FS7 and add-on raw options than pay $10,000 to be able to use the R5 without an intermediate converter.

Ned Soltz
 
Mitch Gross said:
The HXR-IFR5 is indeed required to marry the R5 recorder to the XDCA accessory back's RAW output. I believe the add on cost to a base model FS7 is something like $12,000. The FS7 with the accessory back outputs FS RAW just like the FS700 does. The IFR5 is required to transform FS RAW into the form of RAW Sony utilizes on the F5 and F55, which is what the R5 is designed to record. The R5 also needs a controller device, as the F5 & F55 control it when it is mounted to those cameras.
Click to expand...

Mitch, how do you come up with $12,000. I come up with $9550. XDCA $2000, IFR5 $2200, R5 $5350. If you don't own the R5 then yes, cost is $5350 more for purchase of R5. If you want Sony's Raw 4k recording this is what it takes. If I already owned the R5 then adding the extension and IFR5 is same cost as using the odyssey 7q. Media costs are not considered in above numbers and yes there is a significant price difference of about 2.5-1 against Sony per 512gb drive. I don't have comparative record times per codec/device, but same size of SSD does not necessarily mean same record time... Also, I believe HFR recording in Odyssey 7Q required two cards to record where Sony R5 does not. Mitch, do I still need two cards in The 7Q+ for certain record options? Both solutions have there ergonomic challenges and creative solutions.
 
Mitch Gross said:
We are actively working on different compressed recording formats, including lower bitrate codecs. These will be made available at no additional cost via a free firmware update.
Click to expand...

Thanks Mitch. Not sure if you can tell us, but does this include compressed RAW too?
 
nsoltz said:
No Sony insanity here-- just keeping the camera to a lower price point. If you want a camera to output directly to the AXS-R5, then buy the F5 or F55. There is still a minimum of $8000 or so savings between FS7+IFR5 and the F5 + viewfinder. As Mitch notes, the signal from the FS7 or 700 needs to be converted to the raw format recorded by the AXS-R5. That would add $2000 or so to the camera, which you can achieve either via adding the cost to the camera or making an accessory available. I have shot the FS700 to the IXR5+AXSR-5 as well as to the 7Q. I completely agree that the Sony solution is an ergonomic nightmare handheld but it makes little difference on a tripod. Personally I would rather pay $8000 for the FS7 and add-on raw options than pay $10,000 to be able to use the R5 without an intermediate converter.

Ned Soltz
Click to expand...

Thanks Ned. What would you prefer, the R5 solution or the Odyssey solution (consider both with and without the cost differential)? Thanks.
 
I think the choice of Odyssey or AXS-R5 depends upon your application. For me personally, the 7Q+ makes more sense. Even more important than Raw to me is the external monitoring to that sharp OLED screen and the scopes/image analysis tools. In episodic TV work, I've seen the Panavision F55 kit which included F55's with Panavision mount and glass plus AXS-R5. In that scenario, viewfinder was adequate for operator while director and DP in the village could had monitors. 7Q+ is a better choice for the FS7 for 4K ProRes via HDMI.

Ned
 
HD Gear Guru said:
Mitch, how do you come up with $12,000. I come up with $9550. XDCA $2000, IFR5 $2200, R5 $5350. If you don't own the R5 then yes, cost is $5350 more for purchase of R5. If you want Sony's Raw 4k recording this is what it takes. If I already owned the R5 then adding the extension and IFR5 is same cost as using the odyssey 7q. Media costs are not considered in above numbers and yes there is a significant price difference of about 2.5-1 against Sony per 512gb drive. I don't have comparative record times per codec/device, but same size of SSD does not necessarily mean same record time... Also, I believe HFR recording in Odyssey 7Q required two cards to record where Sony R5 does not. Mitch, do I still need two cards in The 7Q+ for certain record options? Both solutions have there ergonomic challenges and creative solutions.
Click to expand...

Sony Solution:
$2000 XDCA
$2200 IFR5
$5350 R5
$1800 AXS 512G memory card
$550 AXS USB card reader

$11,900 Total, not including an additional V-mount battery to power it & mounting hardware.


To compare Apple to Apples...

Convergent Design Odyssey7Q+ solution:
$2000 XDCA
$2295 Odyssey7Q+
$795 FS RAW Record Option
$1495 two 512G Odyssey SSDs
$35 CD USB adapter for Odyssey SSD
$75 battery plate or cable

$6695 Total, not including battery & mounting, all of which are lower cost than Sony due to lighting weight and lower power draw.


Both solutions have their challenges, yes. Two cards are in fact needed for Odyssey7Q+ to record 4K RAW above 30p or 2K RAW above 120p. (BTW, Shogun with its single SATA connection port will never be able to go over those frame rates should it eventually be able to record CinemaDNG from FS RAW data.) And you are correct that the Sony memory is recording a compressed RAW so that more Odyssey SSDs are required. But even if we quadrupled the amount of memory (go to two 1TB Odyssey SSDs instead of the two 512G units listed), that is still about a $4000 difference. As far as ergonomics go, I don't see how anyone could argue for the Sony over the Odyssey7Q+ in my admittedly-biased view.
 
skimmel said:
Thanks Mitch. Not sure if you can tell us, but does this include compressed RAW too?
Click to expand...
Not at this time.

As has been stated before, compressed RAW is an issue. Compressing, decompressing, then re-compressing and decompressing and eventual recompressing and decompressing in an edit system can lead to a phenomenon known as concatenation, where the artifacts compound upon one another.
 
Great info here. Thanks Mitch. Luckily I bought the AXS-R5 for my F5 (4k RAW + 2k 240fps slo-mo), so that is where the R5 will stay for me. I was hoping to use it on either the F5 or FS7, but as you point out, it's not worth the trouble compared to just going for the 7Q+. Firmware upgrades for both Sony & Odyssey seem to be happening at a decent clip so many issues should be solved pretty quickly.
 
Fair points Mitch on pricing. I was curious how the pricing jumped to 12K as I wasn't considering media cost in my calculations. We all have to count the costs and sometimes cost counting is not only in $ but in other ways as well some of which have been well stated.
 
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