7Q Firmware 1.1.105 first results
- Thread starter Clermond
- Start date
Mitch Gross
Veteran
Those are all LCD monitors with poorer color response than an OLED monitor.
May I suggest a test?
Try switching the FS700 to HD video mode and view this in a regular video mode on the Odyssey7Q (DPX or HD ProRes recording). Compare how the colors match there, because at this point there is no white balance work that the Odyssey7Q is interpreting out of a RAW signal. You can also use the various image analysis tools on the Odyssey7Q or record a shot in ProRes this way to analyze in post. In fact you can then switch back to 4K RAW on the camera, shoot in 4K2HD the same image and compare that in post. Same goes for recording in straight 4K RW and letting Resolve do the conversion to ProRes.
I'm just trying to help you narrow down where you are seeing a difference. If you look at HD video into the Odyssey and still see i"incorrect" color, then you may need an adjustment to your unit and should contact our support desk. But comparing our OLED's color rendition to that of several lower cost LCD panels will only tell you that the Odyssey has a superior color response. They will absolutely be different and I can assure you that given the choice, go with the Odyssey for the most accurate image.
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So I've been putting the "New" 7Q through the motions the past few days. Lots of switching frame rates, shooting a few charts and real world tests as well. Here's what I'm liking so far
1) 4K RAW and 4K2HD = No aliasing or Moire (or very little at least). I shot a chart and so much less artifacting than AVCHD and also the 2K RAW. The image looks so clean and nice.
2) No Miss-match SSDs and I have not been able to crash it yet which is nice. A few minor glitches here and there, like the Zoom freaked out for a bit and I restarted, but overall, way, way more stable than the previous firmware build.
3) The DNGs seem to work well with After Effects and Photoshop CS6 (non CC) which is nice. But After Effects is useless for transcoding since it does not take advantage of GPU and is so slow.
4) Pomfort ClipHouse seems to work decently with the new DNG files as well. The big drawback is you can't export 4K.
5) The flicker seems to be gone and the 7Q just feels more stable and snappier in general.
NEGATIVES
1) The only BIG ISSUE I've had is with the new Resolve settings and the new S-Log Lut. It just does not handle the color Red well, as it comes out very pink. I've been sending files back and forth with Paul Curtis and he seems to think something is amiss with the new LUT as well. I talked to Andy @ CD and he says they are working on a better LUT.
I've actually found the old Resolve BMD settings and old S-Log 2 LUT from the first firmware is more color accurate than the new settings.
SUGGESTIONS
1) Is there any way to offer more compression on the 4K RAW? Something like RED-Code? I love the flexibility of RAW, but it's not real world useable except on really short projects.
2) I noticed that 4K 60fps and 2K 240fps stripes the frames across both SSDs in Odd and Even frames. This is fine except when you mix frame rates and some footage (4K 60fps and 240fps) is RAIDed while the less demanding footage writes them to SSD 1 until it's full. As this is happening SSD 1 gets filled while SSD 2 remains empty so the amount of RAIDed footage you can shoot drops at an exponential rate. Seems better when using 2 SSDs if it could evenly record on both SSDs in all frame rates, so the drives would fill more evenly. I hope that mades sense.
Overall, I think CD did a very good job. I cannot wait for the 4K compressed (please come soon) and the higher frame rates on the 4K2HD. God speed on that.
1) 4K RAW and 4K2HD = No aliasing or Moire (or very little at least). I shot a chart and so much less artifacting than AVCHD and also the 2K RAW. The image looks so clean and nice.
2) No Miss-match SSDs and I have not been able to crash it yet which is nice. A few minor glitches here and there, like the Zoom freaked out for a bit and I restarted, but overall, way, way more stable than the previous firmware build.
3) The DNGs seem to work well with After Effects and Photoshop CS6 (non CC) which is nice. But After Effects is useless for transcoding since it does not take advantage of GPU and is so slow.
4) Pomfort ClipHouse seems to work decently with the new DNG files as well. The big drawback is you can't export 4K.
5) The flicker seems to be gone and the 7Q just feels more stable and snappier in general.
NEGATIVES
1) The only BIG ISSUE I've had is with the new Resolve settings and the new S-Log Lut. It just does not handle the color Red well, as it comes out very pink. I've been sending files back and forth with Paul Curtis and he seems to think something is amiss with the new LUT as well. I talked to Andy @ CD and he says they are working on a better LUT.
I've actually found the old Resolve BMD settings and old S-Log 2 LUT from the first firmware is more color accurate than the new settings.
SUGGESTIONS
1) Is there any way to offer more compression on the 4K RAW? Something like RED-Code? I love the flexibility of RAW, but it's not real world useable except on really short projects.
2) I noticed that 4K 60fps and 2K 240fps stripes the frames across both SSDs in Odd and Even frames. This is fine except when you mix frame rates and some footage (4K 60fps and 240fps) is RAIDed while the less demanding footage writes them to SSD 1 until it's full. As this is happening SSD 1 gets filled while SSD 2 remains empty so the amount of RAIDed footage you can shoot drops at an exponential rate. Seems better when using 2 SSDs if it could evenly record on both SSDs in all frame rates, so the drives would fill more evenly. I hope that mades sense.
Overall, I think CD did a very good job. I cannot wait for the 4K compressed (please come soon) and the higher frame rates on the 4K2HD. God speed on that.
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Kyron
Well-known member
You're not alone Martin. Shooting in Slog2 still gives me two different looking white balances as well between the fs700 inbuilt lcd and the 7Q.
My girlfriend walks in after I've updated to the new firmware and says "oh! did they fix the white balance thing?" and I smugly returned, "of course dear...." and as I turned back and focused my attention on the 2 screens to compare, I noticed a definite difference. I looked at her and she saw it too. Well, I looked like a fool!
Mitch Gross
Veteran
Guys, your onboard LCD and the Odyssey will always look somewhat different. The Odyssey is much better, more accurate monitor.
The issue previously with the white balance was that we were reverse tracking. As long as you balanced correctly it appeared about the same, but if you offset the camera to warmer it would appear colder on the Odyssey, and vice versa. That is now corrected and it is not what you are seeing here. What you are describing is mismatched calibrations of monitors. Not much o can do about that when one monitor is much more capable of showing certain colors than the other.
The issue previously with the white balance was that we were reverse tracking. As long as you balanced correctly it appeared about the same, but if you offset the camera to warmer it would appear colder on the Odyssey, and vice versa. That is now corrected and it is not what you are seeing here. What you are describing is mismatched calibrations of monitors. Not much o can do about that when one monitor is much more capable of showing certain colors than the other.
I have an FS700 (and Nanoflash) but have not ordered a 7Q yet. After working with 5D3 RAW and Resolve, it's clear that having proper calibration is very important: for example by whatever means getting to a correct, calibrated BT.709 colorspace and gamma. From these posts it sounds like there is a calibration issue somewhere (or mismatched setting in the signal chain). A wider gamut OLED display will indeed be different- showing richer color detail, etc., however the root colors and white balance will be the same (I would expect the OLED to appear more contrasty and saturated vs. LCD (the AC7 also has an OLED version, was that used?)). I'd be happy shooting a live scene and seeing it match with the naked eye to the monitor (as a starting point)- something I can do with the 5D3 once WB is set correctly (will experiment with the FS700). Getting 5D3 RAW looking accurate in Resolve, as seen when recording, is a bit more challenging as no proper color matrices are being used. I'll make comments regarding CD's Resolve workflow in another thread (related to accurate color).
I had a bunch of issues with the FS700 LCD screen colour bias from new. Sony replaced my screen 3 times- mainly due to dead pixel issues. Each new LCD had a different colour bias (usually more green or more magenta)- radically different.
Please don't trust your LCD! In the end it was so off, I asked the Sony techs to adjust as best they could. They improved it but its still not accurate.
Please don't trust your LCD! In the end it was so off, I asked the Sony techs to adjust as best they could. They improved it but its still not accurate.
Yeah my AC7 is indeed the OLED version. With the extras i bought with it, it cost me nearly as much as the O7Q without drives and software.
I must admit though i have not tested this issue thoroughly yet, so while i do not trust the onboard LCD, i was pussled with the amount of monitors being somewhat accurate, while one was off. Both the AC7 and the O7Q is more contrasty and gives much cleaner image than the LCD.
I must admit though i have not tested this issue thoroughly yet, so while i do not trust the onboard LCD, i was pussled with the amount of monitors being somewhat accurate, while one was off. Both the AC7 and the O7Q is more contrasty and gives much cleaner image than the LCD.
Clermond
Veteran
I must say as long as REC709 is not usable because of these purple egdes and too high contrast,
and also as long the displayed LUT in sLog isnt correct and also affects the waveform -
as long as I have these issues it's useless to highlight the brillant OLED display. There is
no advantage of the monitor actually (I am talking about the monitor, not the recorder)
and also as long the displayed LUT in sLog isnt correct and also affects the waveform -
as long as I have these issues it's useless to highlight the brillant OLED display. There is
no advantage of the monitor actually (I am talking about the monitor, not the recorder)
morgan_moore
Major Contributor
Im not sure what people want from monitor accuracy - IMO you are never going to get an accurate monitor on set (unless you are in a black tent)
Of course none of us want a bright magenta or green monitor.
If I were trying to colour balance a scene I would hold a grey card in front of the lens and look at the position of the RGB spikes on the WFM?
The bigger the WFM the better the result; winner O7q surely?
S
Of course none of us want a bright magenta or green monitor.
If I were trying to colour balance a scene I would hold a grey card in front of the lens and look at the position of the RGB spikes on the WFM?
The bigger the WFM the better the result; winner O7q surely?
S
Clermond
Veteran
sorry, maybe I didn't express myself very well:
I wanted to say actually I have to shoot in sLog as REC709 is insufficient.
In sLog I cannot use the LUT as the waveform displays the LUT not the recorded stream.
So I have to shoot sLog and sLog is displayed on the monitor
-> the monitor is only for framing with waveform.
I wanted to say actually I have to shoot in sLog as REC709 is insufficient.
In sLog I cannot use the LUT as the waveform displays the LUT not the recorded stream.
So I have to shoot sLog and sLog is displayed on the monitor
-> the monitor is only for framing with waveform.
morgan_moore
Major Contributor
How complex is it to turn LUT on/Off? (one button on Alexa F3)
paulcurtis
Veteran
It's a single button press to flip?
The only thing i'd say that the single built in LUT isn't ideal and i don't think it's very accurate either but i find no issue shooting Slog and just flipping between to get a better sense of recorded saturation.
In the future it would be great to have more LUTs and user defined ones but right now i find it adequate.
cheers
Paul
So the Pro Res is superior to the 2k Raw as far as image quality (aliasing and moire). So which to use when you want the highest quality image? The Raw will give you the dynamic range but Pro Res is a better image. Interesting situation...
From reading the specs, it looks like 444 12-bit ProRes is supported? If so, then if the debayering quality is OK, there's no practical advantage to 2K raw except HFR (HFR 120+ possible with ProRes on the 7Q?).
The 42KHD Pro-Res definitely has less aliasing and moire than 2K RAW, but seems to have a little less DR than RAW. Could this be just a profile thing as the 4K2HD seems like Convergent could squeeze a bit more DR out of the 4K2HD, but that's a Mitch question. Messing with the RAW settings, seems like you can get crazy with how flat you want the image. Seems like a super flat setting can be applied to 4K2HD if Convergent wanted to.
But I know Convergent stresses the faithfully recording the FS700 signal, which seems like they are doing because the 4K2HD does very closely match the S-Log AVCHD from my pixel peeping. With that said, if Convergent can improve upon it, I say go for it! I know when I apply the S-Log LUTS to the 2K or 4K RAW, it does appear to have more Dynamic Range / flatter than the 4K2HD in the same shot (but that could be just an eye perception thing - would need a chart to really verify). So it seems like 4:2:2 10-bit transcoded from 2K or 4K has a bit more DR than 4K2HD Pro-Res.
But 4K2HD is awfully convenient
For the best image and best DR, it's 4K RAW - No Aliasing or Moire and the most dynamic range. But it's freaking huge file sizes. I'm making a fun, little macro 4K test and the image is stunning in 4K. Just stunning. I know Mitch is sick of me saying this, but if the 4K RAW could have a few compression ratios like RED-Code, that would be the ULTIMATE!
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