7D vs GH1 comparison video please?

[Rick Burnett]

Very interesting thread. I own both a Nikon D90 and a Canon 7D currently. I am here researching the GH1 for a friend who is less into cameras that I am.

First, pertaining to the D90, this is the absolute worst 720p HD video camera I have EVER used, period. Comparing this to anything is a waste of time. No exposure control and the worst skew/jello of ANY camera I have ever seen. Want to see it? Have a look at this test where I compared it to the HV30

http://vimeo.com/2944728

As which you also see, I have an HV30 and recently acquired an HF200 as well (needed a VERY LIGHT camera for mounting on an RC car).

The reason I am here though is to shed some discussion on topics not seemed to be covered in this thread about the GH1 and some of the shortcomings of the 7D.

I love my 7D, but only so much. I plan on eventually replacing with the Scarlet S35.

I have watched a LOT of videos on both the 7D and GH1 and what I find poor is that most people don't even try to match the coloring or sharpness in the cameras. The 7D default settings are horrible. I change them to give me the widest dynamic range in the image so I have the most to work with in post processing. To me, from what I can see, other than the codec issues (which H.264 has them as well) seem to have the range to produce colors that anyone wants. To me both cameras do well at this.

I also don't understand how a lens is optimized for video? The resolving power for an image lens is going to be much higher since it has to handle a higher resolution. I use the kit lens on my 7D along with a 30mm 1.4, 10-20mm 4.5+ and a 28mm to 300m 4.5+ All of them work quite well. Unless this is pertaining to focus/aperture issues which I could see? This is an honest question, just trying to understand what these optimizations are of?

The two biggest annoyances of the 7D are Moire and Aliasing. Hands down these are the hardest thing to deal with because on camera, you cannot see them. There is no zoom function in video playback. Every test I have seen with the GH1 also deals with Moire. Only way I can tell to detect is using an external HDMI monitor on playback (not record because it goes to 480p mode). Sometimes this aliasing is HORRIBLE in very wide deep shots. Has anyone looked at this with the GH1?

The skew and jello of the 7D, while worlds better that the D90, is still not nearly as nice as my HV30/HF200. Any telephoto shots are VERY HARD to do with stabilization or at least a locked down tripod. Pans are more forgiving than tilts.

I saw some feel that the GH1 is worse than the 7D on this front, this would concern me as it drives me CRAZY on the 7D as well. I'll lose a good shot that I thought was fine when I see it at 1080p.

The HV30 also has to be pulled down, and while it is an easy step to do, it's a pain and just adds more time to a job that could be spent doing other things. I am not a huge fan of the AVCHD codec (The HF200 has this as well) and I convert everything out of it to ProRes Intermediate. Granted, I have to do this with all my cameras, but it seems the AVCHD takes a bit longer to process, have others noticed this?

But the number one thing that concerns me with the GH1 is the crop factor. It's hard enough on the 7D to get a distortion free ultra wide angle, like the 10mm lens, I can't imagine trying to find a lens that gave the same width image for the 4/3rds. The whole reason I decided on the 7D was so I could port my lens over to the S35 from Red which has the same crop factor (when it is released). How do you all feel about this? Granted, I absolutely agree about the FD lens and how they cannot be used on the 7D easily.

The autofocus stuff on the GH1 was pretty cool. I would NEVER use autofocus with video, ever. (while recording). All of the example I saw looked like autofocus happening I prefer to pull focus with my followfocus or just focus deep (which of course is a problem in urban settings with cameras that line skip).

720p mode on the 7D I just avoid. The aliasing and Moire are just too horrible for me to use. I am sure some can make it work, but it's a nightmare I find.

For my friend, I will reiterate my only concern to him is that he wants this to shoot pictures of his family, and because of that, he'd be better off with a camera that has less rolling shutter issues, like an HF200 or the like.

As for between the 7D and GH1, I think it depends on where you want to go next from the camera you buy. Both look like they shoot great video and I think people would be happy with either. They both can shoot filmic or video from the quality of the shooter/color grader. As someone mentioned, these cameras are at the beginning of the technology. Sensor size and lens do matter going forward. This has affected my decision more than anything else. I wouldn't shoot action on EITHER camera because It's hard to follow it and not get skew. But of course, we shoot our action on an HVX200 and use the 7D for locked down shots.

And finally NOTHING is going to tell you which camera works best for you till you sit down with them both and play with them. Bring a memory card to your local store and shoot some shots then take the files home and evaluate them. I saw ALL these great videos of the D90 only to make my most disappointing purchases in my life with video. This is the single best advice people can give you. Like I said, I love my 7D, others here love their GH1, we all have different things we can live with, and different things we can't live without!

 

[Barry_Green]

I also don't understand how a lens is optimized for video?

Has nothing to do with the imaging, it has to do with silent autofocus with minimal breathing, etc. The GH1's lens acts way more like a videocamera lens than other SLR lenses do.

Sometimes this aliasing is HORRIBLE in very wide deep shots. Has anyone looked at this with the GH1?

Yes, and it has a similar level of aliasing/moire in 1080 mode. In 720p mode there's still lots of it, but much less than the 7D's. However, while the amount of moire is about the same, the TYPE of moire is different. The GH1's is strictly in the luminance, b&w. On the 7D it adds chroma moire on the image, so you get orange/purple moire patterns, which subjectively make it more noticeable. But ALL the DSLRs have the same basic level of moire.

I saw some feel that the GH1 is worse than the 7D on this front, this would concern me as it drives me CRAZY on the 7D as well. I'll lose a good shot that I thought was fine when I see it at 1080p.

The GH1 and 7D are about the same for rolling shutter.

But the number one thing that concerns me with the GH1 is the crop factor. It's hard enough on the 7D to get a distortion free ultra wide angle, like the 10mm lens, I can't imagine trying to find a lens that gave the same width image for the 4/3rds. The whole reason I decided on the 7D was so I could port my lens over to the S35 from Red which has the same crop factor (when it is released). How do you all feel about this?

I feel that the S35 frame is the "right" size, and has a "crop factor" of 1.0 as far as I'm concerned (but then again, I'm all about the cinema and don't give a flying fig about stills.)

And by that ratio the GH1 has about a 1.3, which is a little annoying but fairly mild. It's not that big of a deal, instead of standing 10' away you stand 13' away, etc. The stock lens goes to 14mm, which is pretty wide, about the same FOV as the 7D on 18mm.

But yes, if you want the ultimate for wide-angle performance, you'd want a 5D.

Sensor size and lens do matter going forward.

Yes, and either sensor is 5x to 6x bigger than a 2/3" Scarlet. You can use Nikon or Canon lenses on the 7D or the GH1 (or, pretty much any lens mount on the GH1). I currently have a set of Zeiss ZFs, even though I don't plan on ever having a Nikon, I know that the Nikon mount is adaptable to any body including the Red One or the forthcoming Scarlet.

 

[Rick Burnett]

Has nothing to do with the imaging, it has to do with silent autofocus with minimal breathing, etc. The GH1's lens acts way more like a videocamera lens than other SLR lenses do.

Ahhh. Okay. Yeah, the lens I use are not silent. But then, I don't (or can't even) use autofocus when actually shooting so I never noticed. I run everything manual.

Yes, and it has a similar level of aliasing/moire in 1080 mode. In 720p mode there's still lots of it, but much less than the 7D's. However, while the amount of moire is about the same, the TYPE of moire is different. The GH1's is strictly in the luminance, b&w. On the 7D it adds chroma moire on the image, so you get orange/purple moire patterns, which subjectively make it more noticeable. But ALL the DSLRs have the same basic level of moire.

I agree on the coloring, and it can be VERY bad. I wish Canon would at least allow zoom of video playback so I could at least see it. I did purchase a Caprock Anti-Moire filter but have not had amazing success with it yet. It does reduce, but not high contrast Moire. I just try to avoid situations that would cause it as much as possible. Even in small doses it attracts my eyes immediately.

The GH1 and 7D are about the same for rolling shutter.

Good to know. I have worked around it quite well. I just finished a paid shoot for a music video and with my 30mm lens I was able to get some good shots handheld following the talent without skew or jello with no stabilization of any kind (including none on the lens). Practice definitely helps. But I will say, for action stuff, where you can't be locked down, the 7D (and I am assuming the GH1) are gonna be useless.

I feel that the S35 frame is the "right" size, and has a "crop factor" of 1.0 as far as I'm concerned (but then again, I'm all about the cinema and don't give a flying fig about stills.)

I am there with you, I bought the 7D for use with video. While I found the D90 a WAY BETTER stills camera, it's just not my focus.

And by that ratio the GH1 has about a 1.3, which is a little annoying but fairly mild. It's not that big of a deal, instead of standing 10' away you stand 13' away, etc. The stock lens goes to 14mm, which is pretty wide, about the same FOV as the 7D on 18mm.

But yes, if you want the ultimate for wide-angle performance, you'd want a 5D.

It is true with the 5D you could get the widest view, I am using some Sigma lens that are designed for the 7D sensor size, so I stuck with the 7D. I had thought about the FF35 from Red, but I am happy with my 10mm lens which is what is keeping me at S35. That extra shallow DoF on the 5D is just not necessary for me relative to the cost.

Another thing to consider for myself is I am now used to the 7D sensor size relative to the lens so of course I would prefer this

Yes, and either sensor is 5x to 6x bigger than a 2/3" Scarlet. You can use Nikon or Canon lenses on the 7D or the GH1 (or, pretty much any lens mount on the GH1). I currently have a set of Zeiss ZFs, even though I don't plan on ever having a Nikon, I know that the Nikon mount is adaptable to any body including the Red One or the forthcoming Scarlet.

My upgrade path will be to the Scarlet Fixed first, then just upgrading the brain with the S35 and Canon mount plate. I will initially use the 7D for super shallow (compared to the fixed) lens. I had initially thought of the 2/3 cinema, but two things make no sense to me. (1) Investing in a lot of small glass that I am not going to use going forward and (2) the crop factor on my current set of lens I am using. Sorry off topic, but something for those to consider if going from 7D/GH1 to a Scarlet in the future.

Pretty much all I've seen on the 7D and GH1 is not that far off from one another. I had a chance to play with the 7D before I bought it which is why I got it, but had I had the opportunity to play with the GH1 first, I could see myself having purchased one of those first. And the FD lens are a nice price!

An addendum to my previous recommendation of trying out both cameras, be sure to understand the settings of the camera as well. This too makes a huge difference. I always set my cameras for most dynamic range and then fix in post. Sure, doesn't look as pretty coming off the camera, but for matching things, it makes it a lot easier than trying to create something that isn't there!

With that video earlier of the Red RAW footage, it was typical of what I see when people post RAW, not as contrasty but FULL of detail. Would be interesting to see the color corrected version of that whole film when it is done and then see how the Red compares to the 5D ad GH1.