7D for snowboarding?

[Lkorver]

Just got word that client of mine might want to produce a commercial based around snowboarding. Its a 30 sec spot with probably 10 seconds of action snowboarding, probably in slow mo. the rest would probably be on the mountain but more portrait style.

My initial thought was the 7D, but with only 720p slow mo, aliasing, and the fact that I'm not crazy about how the 7D handles highlights, let alone snow, I'm wondering if I should rent something else. I own an HPX170 but would probably go for something in the hpx2000 range, although I would really like the portability of the hpx170 or 7D on the mountain.

curious what people thoughts are on 7D in this environment?

 

[alpi69]

general snowboard action doesn´t really call for shallow DOF. So why use the 7D? and bring what lenses? How many ND filters and polarizers?

I shoot snowboard-shows for TV and extremesports films and we will use the 7D this winter for the lifestyle shots, maybe even rails and stuff, definitely for nightshoots.
But slopestyle kickers, powder etc....I´d use your HPX170 (the 2000 of course better). The codec is sooooo superior. The zoom will help out, internal ND filters....

 

[Stephen Mick]

Agree with Alpi 1000%.

Can you do it with the 7D? Probably. But based on experience, you'll find yourself far too concerned with making the gear/setup work, and less focused on the action, where focus should be. An HPX/EX1/HMC is the way to go for stuff like this.

 

[Lkorver]

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thanks for the insight. You are correct, shooting run and gun on the slopes would be a nightmare with the 7D.

Do you think the 7D could work locked off or on a slider or sticks for 3-4 planned out set-ups on the hill, capturing a few tricks and maybe 2-3 portrait style shots?

The advantages of the 7D over hpx in this scenario, with my limited understanding would be in no particular order:

1. better glass (Canon 17-55, Tokina 11-16, and Canon 50 and 85mm)
2. 1080
3. ???

Disadvantage in this scenario

1. dynamic range (highlights may go bonkers if its sunny out)
2. view finder friendliness (using the Zacuto magnifier)
3. scew/jello on quick pans (thinking most shots would probably be slow pan at most)
4. poor slow mo image quality in 720p
5. ????

Do I have the major pro's and con's figured out here? Is the 7D worth a shot in this scenario?

thanks guys,

luke

 

[Stephen Mick]

Hell yeah it's worth a shot, especially on a slider or sticks where mobility isn't an issue. It'll likely give you some really distinctive-looking footage which should work well with your subject matter.

As for the pros and cons, I won't go point-by-point, but remember that Barry's tests show the 7D records to a 1080p format, but doesn't "resolve" 1080 lines. Will it "look" sharper than the HPX footage? Possibly. Probably. But it's likely aliased detail, and not real detail. But hey, detail is detail, and if it looks good, use it. Just don't depend on the 7D as your only tool in the scenario you're looking at. Don't be afraid to use it, either.

 

[Barry_Green]

The advantages of the 7D over hpx in this scenario, with my limited understanding would be in no particular order:

1. better glass (Canon 17-55, Tokina 11-16, and Canon 50 and 85mm)

How does this help you though? I mean, what are you imagining that this will do for you? Don't go spending a lot of money because someone else is, or "all the cool kids are doing it" or anything like that. If you don't know what you're looking for, that's not the right time to open up the wallet.

Frankly, I think trying to use an SLR for the scenarios you're talking about would be a mess, and would be the last recommendation I'd suggest.

The HPX's lens is going to give you most of the zoom range of all those lenses anyway; the HPX's lens (in cine terms) is about 16 - 220mm.

2. 1080

What about it? The HPX you have already does 1080, and it's about the same level of overall resolved sharpness. The 7D actually has a little bit more resolvable detail, but -- is that worth buying a whole separate kit, etc?

You could get an HMC40 for the same price as a 7D (without all the additional lenses), get a significantly higher-detailed 1080 picture, it'd probably perform perfectly in daylight/snow conditions, and you'd have no hassles, no need to go buying and changing lenses, etc.

So -- the only (and, yeah, I do mean ONLY) advantage I could see, for your scenario, of an SLR over something like a 7D, for what you're describing, is that you'd get shallower DOF out of the SLR. Do you need that? If yes, then get it. If no, then I think you're barking up the entirely wrong tree on this idea.

Now, if most of your shooting is portraiture interviews, and the shallow-DOF look is something you're really looking for, then maybe the 7D starts to make sense for that. But since you're going to be outdoors, you could always just back up the HPX and zoom in to max telephoto, and get a pretty reasonable shallow-DOF look too, so...

I don't understand the hesitancy to use what you've already got? you own it, it's paid for, it'll do better slow-mo and record better sound, it can do the shallow-DOF effect in the outdoors (use heavy ND filtration and maybe bring another 2-stop ND filter)... seems like you already have what you need, unless I'm missing something.

(or, let me put it another way -- I've got a 7d, a GH1, an HMC40, an HMC150, and an HPX170, all sitting in my office right now. If you asked me to go shoot this job, there's no question in my mind I'd grab the 170 and not even think twice about anything else; if I needed a second camera for wide beauty shots, I'd bring the HMC40 for that.)

So -- is there any equivalent-style production you can point us to, so we can see what you're wanting to shoot?

 

[Lkorver]

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Hey Barry, thanks for all the detailed advice so far. I do own the 7D and the lens package so money wouldn't be a factor in this case but regardless, it still seems like the consensus is 7D would be a major risk/headache on the mountain.

Do you think it would be hard to match footage from hpx170 and 7D if I did decide to shoot a few shots with the 7D for some shallow DOF. I would think as long as I'm not cutting between shots of the same action and specific setting it would be ok to mix 7D and hpx170, no?

To answer your question about what we are going for in this piece... the client has given this ad campaign as a style reference. It seem to be of very high quality (camera and lighting). Do you think the hpx170 can hold up to this quality, hard to tell on such small scale. Can I hold up to this quality...we shall see. I think on a snow covered mountain, in December, is probably the last place I would feel comfortable trying to pull down nice images.

 

[Barry_Green]

Well, if you already own it, then that's a different matter. I thought you were going to have to spend some dough to get ahold of one. Heck, if you've got one, why not bring it along?

As far as intercutting, what is your deliverable? If you're delivering on standard-def dVD, then yes you should be able to match them. I've played with the 7D's color capabilities and made a somewhat passable match, color-wise, between it and my 170, so with some effort you should certainly be able to get them to match.

As for the spots you reference, you could certainly shoot "blue" on an HPX170; "red" would be tough unless you used an adapter, but with an adapter you could do it. Again, depends on your deliverables. If it's for 1080p HDTV broadcast, you could do it but it'd be a little soft, I'd rather use an HPX300 or EX1 or something like that for that size. But for the web? Yep. Except you'd shoot it in progressive so you wouldn't have the interlacing artifacts...

 

[Lkorver]

As far as intercutting, what is your deliverable?

Not sure, still in text message pre-production stage with client. I would guess SD DVD since its for regional network broadcast. I'll know more tomorrow.

As for the spots you reference, you could certainly shoot "blue" on an HPX170; "red" would be tough unless you used an adapter, but with an adapter you could do it. Again, depends on your deliverables. If it's for 1080p HDTV broadcast, you could do it but it'd be a little soft, I'd rather use an HPX300 or EX1 or something like that for that size. But for the web? Yep. Except you'd shoot it in progressive so you wouldn't have the interlacing artifacts...

What about for an SD broadcast, hpx170 would hold up right, or would you still want the 300/ex1?

But for the web? Yep. Except you'd shoot it in progressive so you wouldn't have the interlacing artifacts...

Tipping my "green" hand here, why would one want to shoot interlaced? I have always shot progressive when I can. What rules would you follow to know when to shoot progressive vs interlaced?

thanks Barry!

 

[Eric Ferguson]

The reason to use the 7D for snowboarding is the glass. You can put a TRUE wide angle lens on there and then shoot amazing footage that you'd never pull off with wide adapters on a prosumer vid cam.

The best POV snowboarding footage I've ever seen was shot on a 5DmkII. Watch this film, watch your jaw drop: http://www.vimeo.com/3155182



The idea that the 5D/7D is only useful for shallow DOF is a little limiting, I think. Interchangeable lenses open a lot of doors.

 

[alpi69]

The idea that the 5D/7D is only useful for shallow DOF is a little limiting, I think. Interchangeable lenses open a lot of doors.

I didn´t mean to say that. It´s like saying the 7D is useless because it has less resolution......
The question is what you need to deliver.
This 5D POV clip is nice, but is it really that special because it was a 5D? I have seen quite a lot of stuff like this shot with small cameras. Since the DOF is all the way back, I see not much advantage to use the 5D. A good HD-lipstick cam with a good recording device can bring similar results and have less weight. Skateboarders did this stuff for years already.

DSLRs can be great, but they won´t be ideal for everything. Depending on your needs they will actually be limiting! If you have a clear skript and 10 shots in mind, go ahead and shoot DSLR on the mountain. If you are in a kinda run and gun mode or have shots that HAVE TO BE PERFECT (like final runs at an event with audio)......I´d prefer the HPX.

Ha, I will always bring them both from now on ;-)

 

[Barry_Green]

What about for an SD broadcast, hpx170 would hold up right, or would you still want the 300/ex1?

Of course an HPX170 would hold up great for SD broadcast. NBC News bought a scad of HPX170s for HD broadcast. I'm just saying that if it's for that looking-through-a-window 1080p look, a 300 or EX1 will deliver a sharper image than a 170.

Tipping my "green" hand here, why would one want to shoot interlaced?

In a perfect world, nobody should ever want to shoot interlaced. Interlaced is an evil and hideous plague inflicted upon us by sadistic video engineers, and it should be exterminated at the earliest possible opportunity.

But -- if you want the "live" look in 1080, you don't really have a choice; there is no 1080/60p broadcast standard yet, so 1080i is it.

What rules would you follow to know when to shoot progressive vs interlaced?

Shoot progressive at all times, unless the client actually threatens to castrate you if you don't shoot interlaced. Even then, try to shoot progressive anyway, under the thinking that you can probably take him in a fight. But if he's actually holding one of those Christmas wooden nutcrackers, and he's really, really insistent, and he'll agree to sign a waiver that says "I agree to accept all responsibility for my footage sucking horribly because I demanded it be shot in interlaced", then ... okay, shoot interlaced. But get paid up front, and remove your name from the credits. And then, when the project's done, hit him with the nutcracker.

 

[Barry_Green]

The reason to use the 7D for snowboarding is the glass. You can put a TRUE wide angle lens on there and then shoot amazing footage that you'd never pull off with wide adapters on a prosumer vid cam.

Why? You can get just as wide with a fisheye adapter on a video camera... if you're saying that it's because of the size of the camera that the SLR is more appropriate, that's a reasonable argument, but for wide-angle you can get equally wide with a Century .45 fisheye (HPX170 equiv. of 12.6mm on a 5D) or, if you need it, you could even get an "XTREME fisheye" (HPX170 equiv. of an 8.8mm on a 5D). Of course, that "xtreme" fisheye will result in a fully circular image with a big black border on it. But I think the .45 could easily deliver about the same field of view as shown in that video in post 10.

 

[Lkorver]

Shoot progressive at all times, unless the client actually threatens to castrate you if you don't shoot interlaced. Even then, try to shoot progressive anyway, under the thinking that you can probably take him in a fight.

Now Barry, would an LLC or S-corp better protect me in a castration situation?

 

[Barry_Green]

The nutcracker. If you whack the guy, he can't sue you.

 

[Lkorver]

I guess a DOF adapter would be another option which I have access to and am very comfortable shooting with. This would solve the codec issue and give me the DOF flexibility I'm looking for. I guess weight and bulk would be the main reason not to go this route. codec

 

[the_wallbanger]

I took my 7D snowboarding with me last week. The mission was just to check the capabilities and ergonimics of riding while holding it and getting used to the pack.

Some observations..

1) Bring along filters! You'll need a ND and Polarizer for sure. I forgot to pack mine and was forced to shoot at f11 and above.

2) You'll need serious stabilization. I shot 60fps which did a good job reducing jello, but my shots from riding along friends didn't look that great mostly because of the codec's inability to handle the fast moving snow detail. (This isn't smooth powder, but chunky snow with lots of shadows.)

3) Bring a loupe. I couldn't see the display for the life of me with all the direct sunlight bouncing off the snow and from the sunshine.

4) Focusing is extra difficult. When you combine the above factors, finding focus will be tricky if you're into run-and-gun production. Add slow-motion to the mix and those few seconds where you lost focus will be extremely obvious. Get a lens with a good throw distance. Don't expect to keep your gloves on.

5) Lots of extra batteries. and keep your spares in a warmed compartment of you bag.

It's not impossible, but shooting snowboarding requires extra effort and foresight. Best of luck!

 

[DM_rider]

Shoot with your 170. I shoot skiing all winter and would not like the idea of shooting on a 7d. The 7d has it's place, but I don't think snow sports is one of them. Sure it could be done, but the 170 would be much better suited for the job. This is just my opinion.