C100: 7 Weeks to NAB - Anyone hearing anything besides conjecture about a C100 MKIII?

puredrifting

puredrifting

Major Contributor
I am sure I would have seen it posted here but we are due, perhaps Canon will grace us with a 4K C100 MKIII as an NAB present? Been trying to think through how Canon could release a 4k C100 MKIII without siphoning sales from the C300 MKII?

1. 4K but a much less robust, smaller codec implementation maxing at 150 Mbps?

2. Skip the 1080/2K 12 bit 4:4:4?

3. Keep HDMI only?

4. If they kept the data rate down, they could stick with SDXC/SDHC (ala Panasonic DVX200) rather than switch to Cfast but the XC-10/15 use CFast, don't they?

5. They could blow everyone away by changing the EOS Cinema body shape of the whole line to the C700 form factor. How cool would a Mini C700 form factor C100 MKIII be? Then evolve over the C300 MKIII when it comes out. They won't, but it would be uber cool if we could get away from the super tall and short form factor and go back to the longer and lower form factor like the C700. Stick the EVF where it belongs, on the side up near the lens with a built in soft shoulder pad like the C700. One can dream, can't they?

6. Keep the price point at it's usual $6k? Or up it to $8k to protect C300 MKII sales?

What are your hopes, wishes, aspirations (be at least semi realistic, they aren't incluidng 120FPS 4K or multiple SDI outs) for a C100 MKIII and do you think Canon will drop it at NAB? You'd think we would have heard some rumblings about prototypes out there or chatter from the rumor sites? Maybe there is no C100 MKIII yet, who knows?
 
My wish is for them to completely forget about the C300 Mark II (and even the C100s) and start over.

Because if they continue to use the C300 Mark II as a guide to making decisions on their new cameras, we won't be happy.

Just make one darn good system for around $8K-$10K (even two models) and call it something new.
 
NorBro said:
My wish is for them to completely forget about the C300 Mark II (and even the C100s) and start over.

Because if they continue to use the C300 Mark II as a guide to making decisions on their new cameras, we won't be happy.

Just make one darn good system for around $8K-$10K (even two models) and call it something new.
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Hard to predict what they will do. Canon, in the past has taken so long to come out with anything that is truly new and innovative. Really the only thing they have really innovated on since the introduction of the C300 MKII is the CNe 18-80 lens. While I don't think it is the be all/end all, they did come up with something that nobody else has, a servo lens that combines solid features from their B4 broadcast lenses, still lenses and cinema lenses at an accessible price. Not cheap but after shooting with it, I give them kudos for the lens, it's pretty great (A little too slow perhaps) and more signficantly, the innovation.

I wish they could/would do the same for the EOS Cinema line of cameras. The C100/MK1 and MKII are great, solid workhorse cameras that make beautiful images. But they are hopelessly outdated as far as the feature set. If you look at what the competitors are doing, as far as 4K features, high frame rates, and the addition of some simple and cheap operational features that everyone has been requesting, I'm a little embarrassed for Canon. They move slowly, hopefully they will show a C100 MKIII or a C200 or whatever they want to call it for under $10k and hopefully it will be great. I'm a bit bummed because the C300 MKII is a good camera but with just a few tweaks it could have been a ground breaking, mega-monolith of a camera that would have been relevant for many years. It's lack of 4K Prores internal Recording, no de-bayered 4K output and no 4K 60, 100 or 120P means that it is already outdated for a lot of people. The sensor is 4k, I wish they had sprung for a 6K sensor for the same reasons that the 4K sensor on the C100/300 makes such beautiful 1080 pictures. Heck even the C700 is only a 4.5K imager. They seem to have this knack for always leaving their fans wanting, and not in a good way. I love my Canon cameras but it can be so frustrating being a Canon shooter and looking with envy at the category common features that Sony, BMD, Arri, RED and Panasonic shooters all take for granted.
 
I would be fairly surprised if the C100 III doesn't have 4K HDMI out. The XC10/15 does 4k HDMI.

I actually feel that we can predict Canon pretty well at this point. They stick to pretty specific market segmentation, but update at a slower rate than we might hope. The C100 mkIII will be to the C300 mkII what the C100 was to the C300. Extrapolate from there.
 
cpreston said:
I would be fairly surprised if the C100 III doesn't have 4K HDMI out. The XC10/15 does 4k HDMI.

I actually feel that we can predict Canon pretty well at this point. They stick to pretty specific market segmentation, but update at a slower rate than we might hope. The C100 mkIII will be to the C300 mkII what the C100 was to the C300. Extrapolate from there.
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That's pretty much what I've been doing. That's why I think it could have 4K 60p, albeit at a much lower data rate. There is precendence there.
 
C100 mk 3
4k - 100mbps, 8 bit 420 - 30fps
HD - 8bit 420, 60 fps

"better screen, better evf"
SD cards
$6500

Wouldn't surprise me in the least. It is Canon after all....
 
puredrifting said:
That's pretty much what I've been doing. That's why I think it could have 4K 60p, albeit at a much lower data rate. There is precendence there.
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I also wouldn't be surprised to see a low bit rate 4K 60p on the C100 III. As long as the chip and processor can handle it.

All I really want is the focusing system from the C300 II and I will be happy.
 
The xc10 shoots 4k at the same codec/bitrate as the c300mII.
I expect C100mIII or xc100 with 1cfast slot and 1sd slot
4k 30p 4:2:0 8 bit internal 4:2:2 10 bit external via hdmi ( hopefully 60p)
1080p 10bit 4:2:2 internal up to 120p

price initial 6500$
 
I think 24/25/30/60 2k 422 and 24/30 4k 420 at 305mbs is the next step up for it. How could they give it to xc15 and not this?

They should put clog 3 on it aswell...

And 12 xlr inputs...
 
Now that Canon has launched its Digic DV5 (in the XC10 and C300 mkII), the next CX00 series will get it too. This means at least XF-AVC 422 8bit at appropriate bitrates of 305-420Mbps.

But an 8bit offering from Canon in its cinema line at the end of 2017 would be mindnumbingly weak. With a proper codec in place, expect 10 bit. Also expect 4k.

I find frame rates to be much more difficult to predict. It's a bit worrying that the C300 mkII with its dual Digit DV5 can't produce 4k60p. Will the next CX00 be the first camera to sport DV6? If it stays at DV5 I think we can rule out 4k60p. If the C300 mkII could do it, it would.

I don't believe the next camera will be weak and that's why I think the rumor is correct in that it won't be called C100 mkIII. Changing the name will allow Canon to move the price point and I think they will push it slightly up. I wonder if that opens up a door for an actual C100 mkIII that stays at 2k DCI and moves to 10bit (I'd love 12bit) with a proper codec? If the price remains aggressive, I think that is a camera lots of people should pay attention to.

I'm thinking "new" camera at the FS7 level and hopefully a C100 mkIII in addition to that—at some point.
 
AndreeOnline said:
Now that Canon has launched its Digic DV5 (in the XC10 and C300 mkII), the next CX00 series will get it too. This means at least XF-AVC 422 8bit at appropriate bitrates of 305-420Mbps.

But an 8bit offering from Canon in its cinema line at the end of 2017 would be mindnumbingly weak. With a proper codec in place, expect 10 bit. Also expect 4k.

I find frame rates to be much more difficult to predict. It's a bit worrying that the C300 mkII with its dual Digit DV5 can't produce 4k60p. Will the next CX00 be the first camera to sport DV6? If it stays at DV5 I think we can rule out 4k60p. If the C300 mkII could do it, it would.

I don't believe the next camera will be weak and that's why I think the rumor is correct in that it won't be called C100 mkIII. Changing the name will allow Canon to move the price point and I think they will push it slightly up. I wonder if that opens up a door for an actual C100 mkIII that stays at 2k DCI and moves to 10bit (I'd love 12bit) with a proper codec? If the price remains aggressive, I think that is a camera lots of people should pay attention to.

I'm thinking "new" camera at the FS7 level and hopefully a C100 mkIII in addition to that—at some point.
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Interesting ideas. I've always thought they should have a C200 in the lineup that would be what you mention. But might be too close in features and price to the C300 MKII? If the C300 MKII is U.S. $11,999.00 currently, would anyone buy a C200 at $9k or $10k? Only if it had as good or better features than the C300 MKII, which would make no sense for them strategically, why would the C300 MKII continue to exist then? For pie in the sky ideas, I think they need to change up the form factor and get rid of the super tall design, and go with a 3/4 size C700 form factor for the less expensive cameras, that would be super cool. I've had the C700 on my shoulder and liked the way it felt, other than it's definitely a movie/Alexa/Amira sized camera and I prefer smaller and lighter, too many years of 25-30lb Betacams and F900s on my back. We'll know if anything is coming in just seven short weeks or sooner so there is some excitement building.
 
puredrifting said:
But might be too close in features and price to the C300 MKII?
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I agree that there would be some shoehorning involved. I think there is room for a camera price wise at $7995, ideally with the C100 mkIII aggressively at $4995.

But more likely is a new camera at $7995 (an upgrade from the C100 mkIII) and the current C100 mkII stays where it's at until sold out.

Spec wise, there is less room if you want to upgrade the C100 mkII while still stay clearly below the C300 mkII. Perhaps the gap to the C300 mkII can be small, since that camera will get its replacement soonish anyway.

The source of the rumor I mention had been talking to Canonrumors.com and while they said "it would not be called C100 mkIII", they DID refer to it as a "baby C300 mkII". This isn't a CR3, but Keith gets a lot of rumors and he knows what to filter out as trash and what to post. What I mean is, when he posts something there is more often than not a fire somewhere producing that smoke. This camera will NOT come at NAB. It was destined for later this fall.
 
puredrifting said:
Been trying to think through how Canon could release a 4k C100 MKIII without siphoning sales from the C300 MKII?
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What sales? I just don't think they're moving a lot of units at this point. C300 Mk II is being obliterated by the FS7. People are avoiding the C100 MkII because it doesn't do 4K. If Canon cares about actually moving units once again they'll have to come up with something good.

I'd guess it has to have - 4K60P. It will probably be 8-bit 422 to avoid competing with the C300 MKII. No 10-bit. It will have a 100mbps 4K codec. Priced at $7K. Or they may introduce nothing. It's Canon. Who the hell knows?
 
brettsherman said:
What sales? I just don't think they're moving a lot of units at this point. C300 Mk II is being obliterated by the FS7. People are avoiding the C100 MkII because it doesn't do 4K. If Canon cares about actually moving units once again they'll have to come up with something good.

I'd guess it has to have - 4K60P. It will probably be 8-bit 422 to avoid competing with the C300 MKII. No 10-bit. It will have a 100mbps 4K codec. Priced at $7K. Or they may introduce nothing. It's Canon. Who the hell knows?
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What you say may be true, I agree that the C100 MKII is dropping off in sales, it has to be. But the C300 MKII is standard issue in my market. Hardly anyone I know shooting in LA uses the FS7, unless they own it and use it for their own projects. When I talk to various colleagues here, both union and non union, they are all either renting or own the C300 MKII or a RED. I just met a camera operator on set the other day on a commercial project, she just moved here from New York and just bought the C300 MKII after she arrived in LA. She was complaining that she has a hard time getting more than $200.00 a day for her C300 MKII because they are so ubiquitous here. I think nationally, the FS7 is outselling the C300 MKII but as I said, in my market, you rarely if ever see anyone shooting a lower to medium end project (TV, BTS/EPK, documentary) that isn't on the C300 MKII. All of my clients, whose clients are the studios, Hulu, Buzzfeed, Netflix and the networks spec either C300 MKII or C300/100 for the few who don't care about 4k or they are specifying RED or Arri. I know it's different in different markets but you just don't see FS7s on shoots in LA very often. F55s a lot more often, but once you get up to that price point, mostly REDs here.

I completely agree with your last line, "It's Canon. Who the hell knows"? They do have a pro video strategy but to most of us, most of the time, it doesn't make much sense.
 
puredrifting said:
I think nationally, the FS7 is outselling the C300 MKII but as I said, in my market, you rarely if ever see anyone shooting a lower to medium end project (TV, BTS/EPK, documentary) that isn't on the C300 MKII.
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Interesting, must be an LA phenomenon. The corporate/institutional world seems in the FS7 camp. I have yet to see the C300 MkII out in the wild. I've seen a few FS7s. Of course it's in news circles that I see other cameras.
 
brettsherman said:
Interesting, must be an LA phenomenon. The corporate/institutional world seems in the FS7 camp. I have yet to see the C300 MkII out in the wild. I've seen a few FS7s. Of course it's in news circles that I see other cameras.
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LA is definitely a unique market. A lot of production gets done here (and I don't mean big time content), I mean reality shows in which the C300MKII is big and a lot of promotional and marketing content is shot to promote the big stuff, 90% of which is shot on Arris. I shot on half a dozen big shows last year all over the world and all I saw on set were Alexas and Alexa Minis, that was it, not other camera (to shoot the show). Even the drone work was all Alexa Mini. I shoot BTS and interviews for a lot of popular shows and for a few features as well as a smattering of content for Netflix, Hulu, etc. as well as medium to high end corporate. In my little corner of the world, it's unusual to see anything but the Canons, either the C300 MKII, or the C300/100 on 1080 projects for the web. I also see some low budget/indie features that shoot the C300 MKII.

If I still did red carpets, which I don't, I bet you I would see a ton of FS7s and FS5s (of course mixed in with F5s and F55s) in LA because generally, those camera people are not trying to make stuff look cinematic, they shoot a lot of 60p so that it'll look "live" but their clients do need 4K and the Sony name is huge for news and red carpets. Not that an FS7 of FS5 can't look cinematic, of course they can, but Sony is generally considered much more popular than Canon for "live" event type shoots. So this is another branch of production that is big out here where Sony is probably more dominant than Canon. It's just not what I do. Same with medium to low end corporate/weddings, there are probably a ton of FS7s and FS5s used out here for that, it's just not in my circle.
 
https://www.dpreview.com/interviews...ch-01&ref_=pe_1822230_229094570_dpr_nl_248_24
While this article doesn't talk a lot of about the EOS Cinema line directly, it is a fresh interview with two high executives with Canon Japan so is worth looking at to see where the executives of Canon are thinking the future of their offerings lie. Some interesting talk about VR, 4K and Cinema glass. My take away is, look at the guys, listen to what they say, Canon is one of the few old school, traditional Japanese corporations in our field, they are VERY cautious and very conservative. In plain terms, these guys are not BMD or RED type management, they are old school Japanese from the 70s or so, so their business mindset is very different.

Judging from the interview, I think they hold off on a lot of customer demand until the demand is deafening. Whereas Sony and Panasonic are the opposite, they go straight to their user base and design cameras with features that come directly from the user base. I worked with Panasonic closely back in the day and I know that certain cameras like the DVX200 were almost created by the users. Sony is obviously very responsive to what their customers tell them they want or we wouldn't have a camera like the FS7. Canon, OTOH, seems to just take an attitude of "This is what we offer, we hope you like it". I rarely get a sense that Canon closely monitors user boards like this one, perhaps Larry Thorpe and Canon USA do a bit but Canon Japan, where the development and R&D happen, they seem to work in a bubble, fairly far detached from trends and customer demands. Much more of a traditional Japanese business model, the way Sony was in the 80s when I worked closely with their consumer electronics reps and strategy. Sony, back in the day was super elitist, both their consumer and broadcast electronics branches. They would pretty much tell you, "Our products are Sony, premium and everyone wants them. This is what we offer, take it or leave it and we don't discount because we don't need to." Sony has wildly changed since then, Canon has not (yet), although they will eventually have to go more toward that relationship with their customers.
 
I've had a C300 MKII at my disposal for about 4 months now, but for most of my work, which is low to mid-level corporate and event work, I continue to use C100s as my workhorses. After using the C300 MKII for a while, seems to me it is so riddled with inconsistencies and compromises, I have no clue what the heck they'd put in a C100 MKIII.

Though now I think on it, Canon has been known to leapfrog models and features. Remember the C100 MKII added 1080p60, even though the then-professional run-n-gun darling C300 never did.

I would just like a Canon cinema (at least 10-bit) camera where I can stay in one bit-rate, color sampling, and color depth from 1 to 60 FPS (hell, I'd take the much more rational 1 to 48 FPS). Is that so much to ask?
 
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drummondb said:
I've had a C300 MKII at my disposal for about 4 months now, but for most of my work, which is low to mid-level corporate and event work, I continue to use C100s as my workhorses. After using the C300 MKII for a while, seems to me it is so riddled with inconsistencies and compromises, I have no clue what the heck they'd put in a C100 MKIII.

Though now I think on it, Canon has been known to leapfrog models and features. Remember the C100 MKII added 1080p60, even though the then-professional run-n-gun darling C300 never did.

I would just like a Canon cinema (at least 10-bit) camera where I can stay in one bit-rate, color sampling, and color depth from 1 to 60 FPS (hell, I'd take the much more rational 1 to 48 FPS). Is that so much to ask?
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Sounds like the perfect camera to me.
 
drummondb said:
I've had a C300 MKII at my disposal for about 4 months now, but for most of my work, which is low to mid-level corporate and event work, I continue to use C100s as my workhorses. After using the C300 MKII for a while, seems to me it is so riddled with inconsistencies and compromises, I have no clue what the heck they'd put in a C100 MKIII.

Though now I think on it, Canon has been known to leapfrog models and features. Remember the C100 MKII added 1080p60, even though the then-professional run-n-gun darling C300 never did.

I would just like a Canon cinema (at least 10-bit) camera where I can stay in one bit-rate, color sampling, and color depth from 1 to 60 FPS (hell, I'd take the much more rational 1 to 48 FPS). Is that so much to ask?
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Yes, far too much to ask ;-)

I took a one day class at Canon Hollywood delving into the finer features of the C300 MKII, I get what you mean, it has so many damn options for everything about it, but is missing the options that many of us want/need. Seems like they tried to make it all things to all shooters. Some of the options are cool, some are meh and some are maddening.
 
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