60fps limited to 720p... ouch

Barry_Green said:
...and they didn't. And they weren't talking about "an hour of recording would cost half", they said "our 16gb card will cost half what their 16gb card costs."
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If that was the quote, then I'll buy it. But on recording time they did cost less than half.
 
PerroneFord said:
If that was the quote, then I'll buy it. But on recording time they did cost less than half.
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Not in 720/24pN mode! Then they were the same.

Anyways -- either way -- I don't want to go trusting squirrelly marketing statements. As far as they go, I'm now officially from Missouri, and they're in the same boat as Red is as far as I'm concerned. I don't want to hear about it, I want to see it when I can buy it. And I am more interested in the F3 than I've been in any Sony product since the PD150. So I want to believe 'em on all those fronts, but ... there's that whole thing about fool me once, so ... I will believe it when I see it.
 
Barry_Green said:
Sure, but I trust that about as far as I can throw it. I want to hear Sony themselves say it. I don't want to get in a situation where I waited six months to get the NXCAM and then they spring it and it looks nothing like the F3, and when we say "but you said it was the same sensor!" and they say "WE never said that, that was some "sources" on the Internet."

So... no, to me it makes no sense for them to re-use the same component from a CineAlta F3 down in an econobox NXCAM, it makes far more sense that they will repurpose the existing NEX line's chip.

Then again, I've never been a big fan of Sony's marketing anyway. Had a guy in Australia who caught the head of Sony Australia on tape at the EX1 announcement, declaring that SxS cards would cost "half as much" as P2 cards. Got him on tape. Of course, when they were actually released, SxS cards actually cost more than P2 cards. And what do they do? Shrugh their shoulders at you? Blame you for actually believing what they said? There's nothing you can do. So... actually, I do take it back -- I don't want Sony to say it. I want them to demonstrate it, in a purchasable finished unit.
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I think the wait and see approach is probably the best. There is no need to delay or reposition your purchasing decision on the AF100, or any other cam, based on a concept announcement by Sony.


However, I'd say that using the F3 chip is the only logical business decision for a ~$7k camera. The NEX sensor is already in the NEX-VG10, and the same sensor is already in their dSLRs. That sensor will likely be heavily utilized in video capacity in many of their Alpha line of dSLRs to go up against the 7D and 5D MkII. We'll likely also see a FF35 competitor to the 5DII in the successor for the Alpha850/900 as well. The announcement of better-qualified video devices like the AF100 doesn't mean that the video dSLR market is suddenly dead. In fact, its bigger then ever.

Being that Sony already has generous room for market expansion for the NEX sensors, and the fact it was announced as a S35 sensor and not an APS-C, means the probability is higher that its the F3 sensor rather then a NEX.

Now, again, it doesn't mean anyone should be changing their purchasing decision. But within the realm of possibility, based on currently available intelligence, there is no available evidence that its a NEX sensor.
 
Barry_Green said:
I'm now officially from Missouri, and they're in the same boat as Red is as far as I'm concerned. I don't want to hear about it, I want to see it when I can buy it.
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LOL I don't know how many times I've said it, especially after the high expectations and misinformation of the 7D/5D and Scarlet. "Just show me."
 
Steve Castle said:
Now, again, it doesn't mean anyone should be changing their purchasing decision. But within the realm of possibility, based on currently available intelligence, there is no available evidence that its a NEX sensor.
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Well, right now, the unit exists only as a CGI rendering, so it doesn't have any sensor at all. So I don't think there's any evidence, or any actual reports from Sony themselves, that it would be using an F3 sensor or an NEX sensor. But, regardless -- I don't think in the 20 years I've been watching Sony, that I've ever seen them take a step down with higher-end technology. They always make a lower-end product and then dress it up. VX1000 -> DSR200. VX2000 -> PD150 -> DSR250, etc. Panasonic will take the codec out of the VariCam and put it in a $5,000 body, but has Sony ever done anything like that? I can't think of an example. HDCAM never went below the top end, and DigiBeta never went down the line, and even though they had 1/2" CCDs already, they reinvented 1/2" CMOS specifically for the much-lower-cost EX1/EX3.

If I were to bet (and, being from Vegas, I do know a thing or two about betting...) I'd bet that the prosumer-priced product will have more in common with the NEX than it will with the F3. That's just the way they've always rolled.
 
Barry_Green said:
If I were to bet (and, being from Vegas, I do know a thing or two about betting...) I'd bet that the prosumer-priced product will have more in common with the NEX than it will with the F3. That's just the way they've always rolled.
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I'd say the EX1/EX3 were stealing a LOT from their bigger brothers when introduced. Bigger chips, unmatched curve manipulation, interchangeable lenses, cine-gamma, real over and under crank, an LCD that is still the best in class, peaking, first class audio, etc. Those are pro features, not consumer features. And they are on sub $10k cams. Of course, they wear the CineAlta badge.

A lot remains to be seen from Sony, but I'm not betting against them.
 
I used to love Sony and I still like many of their products. Love the $10 earbuds they've been selling for years. Dunno why, just always have. In high school, I picked up a expensive MiniDisc player which I used to record my rock band to digital. Good stuff back then.

Sony really turned me off in there video game marketing wars. They were just such liars! They'd always promise everything and they would never deliver. My favorite is still the fact that when PS3 was introduced they claimed it would be so powerful, it would do DUAL 1080 outputs... Haha, I knew the moment I heard it that it was BS. Lying up a storm so that you believe in their product and hold out til they show up. End of the day in 2011, Xbox360 games look pretty much identical to the lauded PS3 cell processor.

I never really cared for how Sony bought Blu-ray into dominance either, cause I preferred the affordability and required H264 of HDDVD. But whatever.

That all being said, Sony is a giant for a reason because they do make some great products and they do good service and warranty repair worldwide. The F3 looks like it will make better images than the AF100, though I'm guessing it will be marginally better without the 4:4:4 outboard options. I'd take one but since we have to pay for this stuff, I'm definitely staying with the AF. The NXCAM is a huge question mark... There is no way you can say definitely ANYTHING about this cam as Sony will saying anything to get you to wait and buy their product. That and there is no solid info just offhand comments and a CG render with a rotating box and removable lenses.
 
These sensor claims may be a load of Tosh, but remember that Sony isn't the only dirty player out there.
 
Matthew Bennett said:
Advantage AF100!!!

What a disappointing spec - the 60fps capture in the f3 puts us down to 720p. What an unlovely compromise.... Sony should be ashamed at this blemish to an otherwise very nice camera.
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How much Slow motion did you ever see on Sopranos ?;-)
 
The chip in the VG10 can even't do 60 frames per second since it's 30p within a 60i stream and no 720 60p mode. Add the terrible artifacts in the picture compared to the GH2's chip and you see that the chip wasn't really made for video at all. The chip on the NXCAM on the other hand, it may or may not be similar to the chip that will be used in the F3 but seeing how 1080 60p is planned, should prove that it is not the chip from the VG10.
 
Barry_Green said:
Well, right now, the unit exists only as a CGI rendering, so it doesn't have any sensor at all. So I don't think there's any evidence, or any actual reports from Sony themselves, that it would be using an F3 sensor or an NEX sensor. But, regardless -- I don't think in the 20 years I've been watching Sony, that I've ever seen them take a step down with higher-end technology. They always make a lower-end product and then dress it up. VX1000 -> DSR200. VX2000 -> PD150 -> DSR250, etc. Panasonic will take the codec out of the VariCam and put it in a $5,000 body, but has Sony ever done anything like that? I can't think of an example. HDCAM never went below the top end, and DigiBeta never went down the line, and even though they had 1/2" CCDs already, they reinvented 1/2" CMOS specifically for the much-lower-cost EX1/EX3.

If I were to bet (and, being from Vegas, I do know a thing or two about betting...) I'd bet that the prosumer-priced product will have more in common with the NEX than it will with the F3. That's just the way they've always rolled.
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In fairness, it was more then a CGI rendering, they did have a prototype with a sensor in it (they followed a similar route with the F3 just this year). But based on the photograph its impossible to tell the difference between the size difference between an APS-C and S35 sensor. What we know is that it will have a diagonal 1.7 type 27.1mm (diag) sensor.


We also have multiple sources that corroborate this, including Phillip Bloom:

The NXCAM looks very interesting, although just a prototype box with a lens and little info so far it has great potential. It’s AVCHD so 24mb/s and the REALLY cool thing is it has EXACTLY the same S35 EXMOR sensor as it’s big brother the F3. Not a crappy DSLR sensor scaled down to HD like the consumer version out right now this is a dedicated 1920×1080 S35 sensor, not APS-C, large pixels, meaning great in low light, ISO 800 rated. no moire, no aliasing, minimal rolling shutter
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http://philipbloom.net/2010/11/17/f3nxcam/

As well as Japan's Impress Watch:
http://av.watch.impress.co.jp/docs/news/20101117_407532.html

Now, if you're saying that its all 'marketing talk'. Fair enough. I have no motivation changing people's personal biases or arguing on their experience with a company. It doesn't hurt to be cynical in these cases...

However, if you REALLY want to get technical, the F3 and the NEX already fundamentally share designs. Sony's Exmor sensors is designed around their column-parallel A/D conversion, meaning the a/d conversion takes place at each column, and are generally fairly uniform in design between applications. The fundamental difference between a video-centric sensor and a NEX/dSLR will primarily be in the size of the photosites. Clearly, the NXCAM only needs a low-megapixel sensor. This NXCAM may share the updated Bionz processor from the NEX/dSLR with this NXCAM, and other consumer level parts, but there is no reason why this camera would use a high MP sensor when a low MP sensor is available.

But again, we'll see...

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ib04.jpg
 
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