60fps limited to 720p... ouch

Matthew Bennett

Matthew Bennett

Well-known member
Advantage AF100!!!

What a disappointing spec - the 60fps capture in the f3 puts us down to 720p. What an unlovely compromise.... Sony should be ashamed at this blemish to an otherwise very nice camera.
 
Matt -

I think the AF100 does 60p only in 720. It will do an overcranked 1080 upto 60p, but they're won't be a 1080p/60 mode.
 
My understanding is that it can do 1080/60p via external recording, and that the internal recording on this camera is very limited.

Internal recording is, I think, also limited to 8-bit 4:2:0 and MPEG2 35Mb/s. A KiPro Mini, Ninja, or Nanoflash are a bare minimum for this camera.
 
Only dual hd-sdi is capable of recording 60p at 1080, so if thats the case in order to get 60 fps, we are forced to pay a lot of money
 
This is the one spec that the Scarlet will hang over the F3 and AF100 (well, maybe HDRx, too). 120fps 1080p would be a HUGE selling point to me. Perhaps an upcoming Sony module could add this feature :)

Although if external recording at 120fps 1080p is a possibility, it's not like we would be totally screwed. At least there would be an option for recording properly overcranked footage.
 
vcfilms said:
Only dual hd-sdi is capable of recording 60p at 1080, so if thats the case in order to get 60 fps, we are forced to pay a lot of money
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What are you expecting? Most of the affordable low-end external recorders don't do 1080/60p. At the same time you don't want 1080/60p overcompressed either. Yeah, its gonna cost you. Especially if you want 60p and 10-bit 4:4:4 via the dual hd-sdi.

The camera offers the capability if you can afford it. I think a lot of people are going to be happy with the $1-2k external recorders and capturing it in prores 422, and a lot of folks may even have an external recorder already on hand which they use for other cameras. Not everyone is going to use, or can afford to use, the maximum capability of this camera.

But again, this is NOT an AF100 competitor. That new S35 NXCAM is. Its not really fair to Panasonic when this camera is thrice the price of the AF100.
 
Steve Castle said:
Its not really fair to Panasonic when this camera is thrice the price of the AF100.
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Or maybe it is not fair to Sony, since if one wants to over-crank to 60p with the F3 then it will have to be shot in 720P not in 1080P like the AF100 does.
 
Yak said:
Or maybe it is not fair to Sony, since if one wants to over-crank to 60p with the F3 then it will have to be shot in 720P not in 1080P like the AF100 does.
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I mean, there is a huge difference in capturing 1080p/60 in AVCHD on the AF100 versus capturing 1080p/60 via dual hd-sdi on the F3. Both in price and final product.

Also, there are some conflicting information about if the AF100 can really do 60p. Maybe someone more enlightened can fill me in?
 
Steve Castle said:
What are you expecting? Most of the affordable low-end external recorders don't do 1080/60p. At the same time you don't want 1080/60p overcompressed either. Yeah, its gonna cost you. Especially if you want 60p and 10-bit 4:4:4 via the dual hd-sdi.
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I dont know, maybe 60 fps on the SxS cards, not expecting but would be happy if they gave it to us. Not all of us need or even want to record 60 fps at 4:4:4.
 
Steve Castle said:
Also, there are some conflicting information about if the AF100 can really do 60p. Maybe someone more enlightened can fill me in?
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It can record 60fps in full 1080p. And it expands the bitrate when going into overcrank mode.

The recorded footage will have a timebase of either 24p or 30p and will play back in slow motion. If you wanted it to play back as 60p (i.e., 60-for-60) you'd have to use Cinema Tools to change the playback rate, and then you'd have 60fps as true 1080/60p. But since it doesn't record audio in VFR mode, you'd have to record audio separately.
 
Gee, the Sony F23 and F35 don't shoot 60p either. What is Sony thinking.. cameras north of $200k and they can't put 60p on them...

*sigh*

Maybe all the overcrank lovers should just ante up and buy a Phantom or a Weisscam. Problem solved.
 
Yak said:
From Panasonic's web page for the AF100 "Variable frame rates in 24P, 30P and 25P in1080, up to 60P or 50p dependent on 60Hz or 50Hz mode"

http://catalog2.panasonic.com/webap...roupId=112502&surfModel=AG-AF100&displayTab=O
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Cool. But I'm guessing it'll still be 24mbs?

Either way different cameras going on here. I'd be pretty silly to buy a $16k camera and only record to mpeg2 long GOP 420 8bit . We'll see what Sony does with the S35 NXCAM, which is suppose to use the same sensor as the F3. Obviously the sensor does 60p since the F3 can, we'll see what they make of it next summer.
 
Steve Castle said:
Cool. But I'm guessing it'll still be 24mbs?
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In variable frame rate mode the bitrate goes up.

Either way different cameras going on here. I'd be pretty silly to buy a $16k camera and only record to mpeg2 long GOP 420 8bit .
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Agreed.

We'll see what Sony does with the S35 NXCAM, which is suppose to use the same sensor as the F3.
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We'll see about that. Until Sony definitively says that it is, I would instead be inclined to think that the NXCAM will use the NEX10's sensor, although presumably with a proper OLPF for video purposes.
 
Barry_Green said:
In variable frame rate mode the bitrate goes up.


Agreed.


We'll see about that. Until Sony definitively says that it is, I would instead be inclined to think that the NXCAM will use the NEX10's sensor, although presumably with a proper OLPF for video purposes.
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Clearly the AF100 has set the bare minimum of what Sony needs to do with the NXCAM, 1080p/60 included; except it has an extra ~$2k in price (at least) to work with and an additional 6 months. Advantage AF100.

However, NEX-VG10 already has a proper (video-centric) OLPF with a NEX sensor, though its severely limited in too many other regards. So far, multiple sources from different regions have said its the F3 sensor. It also seems logical to me that Sony would want to achieve economies of scale with their 3.43k S35 sensor in the F3 being that they also announced they are making a 4k sensor as well. And its hard to imagine this sensor is bespoke only for the F3. But as you've said, we'll see.
 
Steve Castle said:
So far, multiple sources from different regions have said its the F3 sensor.
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Sure, but I trust that about as far as I can throw it. I want to hear Sony themselves say it. I don't want to get in a situation where I waited six months to get the NXCAM and then they spring it and it looks nothing like the F3, and when we say "but you said it was the same sensor!" and they say "WE never said that, that was some "sources" on the Internet."

So... no, to me it makes no sense for them to re-use the same component from a CineAlta F3 down in an econobox NXCAM, it makes far more sense that they will repurpose the existing NEX line's chip.

Then again, I've never been a big fan of Sony's marketing anyway. Had a guy in Australia who caught the head of Sony Australia on tape at the EX1 announcement, declaring that SxS cards would cost "half as much" as P2 cards. Got him on tape. Of course, when they were actually released, SxS cards actually cost more than P2 cards. And what do they do? Shrugh their shoulders at you? Blame you for actually believing what they said? There's nothing you can do. So... actually, I do take it back -- I don't want Sony to say it. I want them to demonstrate it, in a purchasable finished unit.
 
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Barry_Green said:
Had a guy in Australia who caught the head of Sony Australia on tape at the EX1 announcement, declaring that SxS cards would cost "half as much" as P2 cards. Got him on tape. Of course, when they were actually released, SxS cards actually cost more than P2 cards.
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Come on now.. we both know better than that. We've been around that tree more times than we both care to remember.
 
Which is why I'm saying -- I'm not gonna believe it, until I see the product offered for sale.

EDIT -- unless I'm not understanding what you're saying? SxS cards, when introduced, cost the exact same as P2 cards. You can argue recording time, I'll argue pN, but in the end they said their cards would cost half, and they didn't. And they weren't talking about "an hour of recording would cost half", they said "our 16gb card will cost half what their 16gb card costs."
 
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