60 Second Commcercial Tech Question

R

reelmike

Active member
A question for all of you pros --- I am helping a friend with a non-profit spot ....Can somebody please tell me how much (bars/tone) I should have before a 60 second commercial? I was thinking 30 secs. Also, what is the proper exact end running time for a 60 second spot? Can anybody help with this? I believe it is just shy under 60 seconds??? Any thoughts on making sure my spot is to broadcast spec would be greatly appreciated!

Thanks in advance!

Michael
 
Yeah 30sec should be enough time for bars and tone and as for the length, I would try and keep the voiceover, if there is any, just shy of 60sec just incase it does get cutoff. I have been doing 30sec commercials for 5 and a half years now and notice that you dont always get the full 30. Sometimes its just shy by a couple of frames or soo. So you can just send it a full 60sec and should be fine as long as the voice doesn't go right to the end of it so your sure that it won't get cutoff and sound awkward.

Hope this helps,
John G.
 
Umm...sure, I suppose there are more than 45 interlace fields in a second of video, but you can't cut through fields, only through frames. Just the way it works. I hope I don't sound overly condesending. It's late and I'm tired. My guess is it should be 29:15 and 59:00 flat, but don't hang the fate of a broadcast spot on that...pretty please with a cherry on top.
Peace,

-Harry
 
Umm guys..

Those are the general rules for a Non-commercial (think PBS) show. a 30 mintue show should be 28min 45sec. a 1 hour show shoudl be 58min, 45sec.

When a station sells 30 sec of airtime (that's all a commercial is) then they will give you the whoel and exact 30. Now if you run an exact full 30 then you will get a tight cut at each end, that may or may not clash with adjecent spots - that's yoru choice. Going a couple of frames short is never a bad idea, though often they will then cut those frames off and give you less than your full :30

But the duration of a :30 spot by broadcast standard is 00:00:30:00 and likewise a :60 spot is 00:01:00:00

Other standards to be addressed:
- Make sure you have run your video through a scope and made shure it's broadcast legal - if not, the tech at the station will take a proc-amp to it, and you may or may not like that. (really it prolly won't be too bad).
- Same for audio, make sure your levels are good, and match the corect tone level on the tape for the format you are using.

The basic broadcast specs for the contruction of the overall tape are:
- (at least) 30 secconds of proper bars and tone - note the tone level varies between formats.
- Prefered, but optional: a countdown that counts down to *exactly* 2 secconds before the first frame of the commercial.
- basic network standard: a full 2 secconds of black and silence before the first frame of the commercial.
- then your :30 or :60 (or other) spot.
- and finally black on the end. 2 sec is a good minimum - I like to run a full 10 sec at the end.

Basic broadcast stadard regarding timecode states that a program normally starts at TC: 01:00:00:00.
Then I can set timecode, I stripe my tapes starting at 00:59:00:00. That puts the head of my spot one minute into the tape. If I can't stripe TC (like with DV) then I just have the spot start at 00:01:00:00 instead.

Be sure to have a slate on your tape stating the following information:
Title (name) of spot
Total Run Time (TRT)
Producer of spot (person responsible for it)
Client (advertiser)
Date produced
contact informartion is always a good idea too
- Often a slate is combined with or superimposed over, the countdown.

Normally my master tapes go like this:
:50 of bars + tone
:8 countdown (from 10 to the first frame of 2) with slate information
:2 black
:30 (or other TRT) spot
:10 black
then bars again

These are the general practices that are generally accepted to be correct. If in doubt, it is always a good idea to contact the airing station (or distributing agency) and ask them what thair standards are.

- Mikko
 
Right, it should have been an even number of fields, but I was thinking a fraction of a second. Only a guess though.
 
Actually for 30 a second spot (not a 30 minute program), the 28:45 is correct,. althouhg it would be easier to represent it as 29:15. The computer based insertion equipment doesn't care if the spot is over time, it will simply cut it off.
The 15 frame buffer is a good policy in case the insertion equipment is not calibrated correctly.
 
Gary,
I beg to differ.

You will find that in most systems commercials are loaded manually..often still from tape. and the playout servers just play them as a timed playlist, generally they don't do any croping. You'd be supprized how many stations still also run fully manually, it might be a server playgin back, but a person often still hit's play and cut's between sources.

Timings are key in TV broadcasting and 30's are kept at an exact 30 to keep things in patern.

Here is an screenshot of TONIGHT'S (yet to air) timings for Law & Order on NBC from the system they use to syncronize affiliate stations nationwide.
apt1.jpg

(use this to impress your friends tonight by 'gussing' the next commercial)

Notice how the spots are in second increments, and the seconds still totally ad up during a break.

As someone who sits in a control room and runs in local commercials into these timings, I rely on them beeing exact. A local station often has to roll their tapes 2 secconds before the black hole in the network feed hits and then be exaclt on the money to cut over cleanly. Once a break is running it often can't be edited any more, and it has to end right on cue to cut back to network without a big black hole or clipping the network's next spot/program.

In broadcast 30 seconds is 30 seconds.

...You can always record some commercials and see for yourself how long they are.

- Mikko
 
Mikko, Wow where do you work? Don't you use Seachange equipment? Here in the New york area everything is encoded to the Seachange inserter and the computers decide when do drop in spots based on the priorty level and cost per spot. Whatever the source of the original everything is encoded to an MVL.
The 29:15 allows an approximate 7.5 frames for fade from and to black.
 
I have done some work for an smaller station in Alaska. We don't use any automation. And neither do our sister, or partner stations. Traffic passes they spots to our logs, and then ROS are either added by traffic or on occasion picked at airtime on the fly by the operator.

Nope we don't use seachange.
There are MANY MANY different systems in use (as many as there are stations...) and each one is different. It is by far best to call your distribution channel (staion) and ask them.

Most stations I have visited use Cuts only in MCR .. some drop on a frame or two of black on each end, just to garuntee a clean transition. - But for all of us 30 is a full 30.

If we clip/fade anything, it's our ID. We also have overlength IDs and a static ID that we use if we have uncertain hits. We don't have any bufferes on our incoming feeds, so our switching really is on the fly, we can't delay the start of another program just for our spot to run long. And we still use pre-roll too, just to keep things fun.

- Mikko
 
I just celebrated my 20th year owning an advertising agency producing tv and radio and I also spent 7 years working for a cable company. I too have seen the manual insertions, especially in the early days. In the NY area the use of computer based insertion equipment isn't for it's efficiency, it's to allow the broadcasters to change and prioritize postitions based on spot cost and/or not allowing comptetitors to be side by side. It also, of course, eliminates jobs.

I'm not sure why it's different where you are but my last insertion instructions for NBC TV was 29:15, which we have done for years. I'll look for the email to see if they give a reason.
 
Yeah, I'd be curious as to what they said. - Maybe primary audio/video 29:15, but can use the full 30 at own risk? - That is what i would do.

...What agency? (if you don't mind me asking)

- Mikko
 
I have just started my company, after 30 years in the broadcast industry.
Seventeen of those years were at the NBC affiliate (now O&O) here in town. The rest at most of the other stations in town, and quite a bit of freelance at the networks level.

I've shot and edited thousands of spots, not just for this market, but others as well. Many times I had to load spots and alter the logs myself.

We can all agree that :30 seconds is :30 seconds.

If I want to fade up from black at the beginning of a spot, and also fade to black
at the end, fit my content as well, I will have to give up time to do it.

If I want this spot to air without being clipped at the front or rear, then I really have to watch the total run time of the spot.

One second... or even one second and forty five/sixtieth of a minute, isn't very much in the grand scale of things. The two inch quad carts of yesteryear, and even the one inch reel to reels took that long to come up to speed ( even counting the preroll). 28:45 (for a :30 spot) was exactly what it took to make a smooth switch.

Nowadays, with computer control, video servers and the like, I don't really know
the exact time needed to make a clean switch. I do know that in order to assure that the complete content of my spot will be seen front to end, I will still produce it to fit into a 28:45 slot. If it gets clipped on either end, having plenty of pad,then I can really yell at the engineer(s) responsible for timing and loading the spot. At this point I will add that I don't think anyone is breaking time down into frames or fields.

By the way... Two or three years ago (well after I left), NBC has opted to run some (if not all, by now) of their O&O's from a central hub location. All switching of programming and commercial content (local news production being the exception), Is controlled from Miami. They have sorta set the bar for eliminating positions, and the other networks are considering (if not already doing) the same.

I'll stand with the 28:45
 
I have been doing commercials for about 4 years now. We produce the spots at 30 seconds or 900 frames. We always do a fade in and fade out of 1/2 second. They play exactly right. V.O.'s should never start right on the fade up or fade out.
Consequently 60 second spots run 60 seconds or 1800 frames, with a 1/2 second at each end.
 
KNBC runs through Miami? wow.
I guess it's all bouncing through the birds anyway so it doesn't make a difference.

Servers generally require a second or two to find the file to "cue" it. but once cued they roll instantly. When running a playlist (such as a complete break in sequence) they pre-cue the next file (clip), making the transition an instant cut.

A medium sized NBC affiliate I visited recently uses a 6 channel server for all their playout - including timeshifting of the network feed. The operator has the server cue up to the first frame of black of the break - they put 2f of black on each end of each break - and then hits the CUT and the PLAY buttons simultaniously (2 handed operation, still..) at the start and end of every break. Roll time is instant.
They also use BETACAM-SX for the backup feed, which is rolled in sync by the same controller. It also has a lockup (roll) time of less then a frame from shuttle-still (pause).

Crazy world TV.. when people coment that I'm anal about my watch beeing on time (I keep it within 5sec, always - normally right on sync) I remind them that this business runs in increments of a 30th of a seccond. ...Then normally look at me like I'm insane (true I guess..)

- Mikko
 
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