6 camera concert filming with the 5D

S

Smogen

Member
Ok, This is the deal, we are going to film a concert and want to do it with 5D cameras. We are going to use 6 cameras, two on steadycams, two on cranes and two on tripods.


I have a couple of questions,

1. first of all, does anyone know if someone has done this before, would be nice to know how they did it.

2. Is it possible to put the 5D on a crane? Anyone that has an excperience with this? A Jib Arm is out of the question....

3. We are doing this in Europe and are (ofcourse) recording the sound separetely, will I have a problem syncing the sound and the 5D clips later on?

4. Normaly I would cut the cameras together, live, right there on the concert. With the 5D i suppose this will not be possible since I cant find a way to record video externaly with the 5D, except rebuilding the whole camera body. But is it possible to have one HDMI monitor for the cameraman and then conect it to a second monitor? I suppose I can use magiclantern to get me halft the way, but I feel a bit unsecure with magiclantern, I dont want ro risk magiclantern getting in the way for a canon update with 24/25p, also we are renting some of the cameras. But anyway, crane and steadycam operators need a monitor from the camera, so does the controlroom.

5. I am planning to edit this first converting the files with streamclip to DNxHD and then using Edius and it´s multicam mode or does anyone have a better ide for a workflow?


Sincerely,
Chris
 
Focusing when using crane might be tough could use Marshal monitors, FCP3 has multicam editing support also Pluraleyes make a great sound multicam sync program as the 5D shoots 30fps thats no good for anything apart from the web you will have to retime all your footage.

Derek
 
Wow, this should be interesting. Keeping proper exposure even with all the lights, etc etc may be difficult.

FOCUSING is going to be the biggy here. If you've got the 5d out on a crane, how do you plan on focusing with it? A motorized control rig? Same for the steadycam ops, how will they be focusing.

You can monitor by using HDMI out I believe. It's not full HDMI out, but it's usable (I think. Not sure if I've actually used it while recording).

Here's the other big limitation. Recording time. You've got a 12ish minute limit. How the heck are you going to remote trigger them to continue recording after the 12 minute mark is reached?

And sound, yes if you don't have some sort of sync tone, syncing may proove an issues. I'd say you could use the 5d2's audio as a guide track, but who knows how loud the concert will be, everything may just be blown to bits on that audio track.

That sounds like a fun and extremely challenging job. If I were you, I'd find an electronics engineer, a robot designer, and the best sound engineer you can find as quick as possible. :)
 
Hi, thanks for the answers, I still have pretty much the same questions though. :)

It is an indoor concert, so we will have pretty good control of the lights, and will be able to test everything before.

We already have one of the best sound engineers there is, the sound will be perfectly recorded. So feels nice to have one problem not to think about in this. :)

I think the limitation is 10 minutes in 1080p? Anyway, we will have a big digital clock put up so everytime a cameraman has to stop recording he will start his recording on the clock making the sync between camera and sound possible.

I know I can have one monitor connected to the camera, while recording it shows in 480p(i believe) or maybe 720p, but a second monitor? to the same camera, or connected to the monitor, like a mirror monitor. hmm....

And yeah....focusing, right now I don´t have a clue. But it has to be possible, I have done worse things....I think. ;)


And i will check in to Pluraleyes, but it has to be better than for the web, this is going to dvd and need to pe perfect cuality. Good thing is we have a good deadline for the editing.
 
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I would try to use Pluraleyes for syncing in post even if the cameras audio are "blown to bits" - could be a big time saver. Don't forget you will need to find a way to change the cards on the jibs/crane after 48 min. as well ! I would get the remote cameras focused as close to infinity as possible or use wides to have everything from say 4 meters to infinity in focus (both with fixed focus). With the 5D you can always zoom a little in post because of the larger sensor...
 
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Yeah if you use the internal mics the pre-amps are going to have problems, you could try whacking on a cheap as chips external mic just to have an alternative source and the attenuate that somehow.

Maybe a 5quid lav into the ex. mic slot w/an attenuating cable to calm it down a bit pre-amp wise. Alternatively you could run magic lantern on then and quieten it that way w/the pre amp disable, thou that might be a lot of fuss for 5 cams!
 
Smogen said:
It is an indoor concert, so we will have pretty good control of the lights, and will be able to test everything before.
Click to expand...

That's great. Just remember that if you set exposure to manual on something like a crane, then if you have a shot from further back with more dark area, it may look fine, but if you then zoom into a brighter area, it may get blown out. Auto-iso or whatnot is not a great way to do it either IMO.

Smogen said:
We already have one of the best sound engineers there is, the sound will be perfectly recorded. So feels nice to have one problem not to think about in this. :)
Click to expand...

Good.

Smogen said:
I think the limitation is 10 minutes in 1080p? Anyway, we will have a big digital clock put up so everytime a cameraman has to stop recording he will start his recording on the clock making the sync between camera and sound possible.
Click to expand...

I'm pretty sure it's 12 but I could be wrong. Just make sure your cameramen stagger their record times so they're not all running out at the same time. Plus, keeping an eye on a big digital clock sounds cumbersome, but if they're up for it then great.


Smogen said:
I know I can have one monitor connected to the camera, while recording it shows in 480p(i believe) or maybe 720p, but a second monitor? to the same camera, or connected to the monitor, like a mirror monitor. hmm....
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http://www.hdtvsupply.com/hdmisplitters.html

Smogen said:
And yeah....focusing, right now I don´t have a clue. But it has to be possible, I have done worse things....I think. ;)
Click to expand...

http://www.hocusproducts.com/shop/

Smogen said:
And i will check in to Pluraleyes, but it has to be better than for the web, this is going to dvd and need to pe perfect cuality. Good thing is we have a good deadline for the editing.
Click to expand...

Good to have a nice deadline.
 
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The audio / pluraleyes would be just for syncing the image. I am quite sure that even if it was blowing out, there would be enough peaks and troughs recorded that the software would still sync your images. The sound quality doesn't matter as you will be externally recording it anyhow. That should sync up too no problem.
 
Thanks for the answers, makes me feel a bit calmer. ;)

I have heard that the sound and the image won´t match in a whole 10-12 minute clip on the 5D. So you will miss sync a couple of frames each minute. But maybe this is just the exat 30P factor on the 5D and will work nicely once i convert it to 25P.
 
Smogen said:
Thanks for the answers, makes me feel a bit calmer. ;)

I have heard that the sound and the image won´t match in a whole 10-12 minute clip on the 5D. So you will miss sync a couple of frames each minute. But maybe this is just the exat 30P factor on the 5D and will work nicely once i convert it to 25P.
Click to expand...

No, the sound and image will match exactly if you slow the sound's sample rate down to 99.9% in post. This is because the 5DMII shoots at exactly 30fps not the industry standard of 29.97.
 
He probably means that the memory cards will be full by then so we will not only have to start and stop the recording, we will have to change memory cards as well. Well, the concert will not last longer than 40 minutes, so we will be fine.

What I can se the really big problem will be the focusing and what kind of monitor to use. Should we hook up to a hdmi monitor wich will only give us 480i or should we maybe plug it to a computer to get the full 1920p but then have a lag in the image.

Or can we plug it in to a tv screen or something like that?
 
I hate to be one of those nay sayers, but here I go...

Unless you absolutely HAVE to use the 5D, its not the right instrument for shooting video in an uncontrolled setting, especially in a concert.... the sync issues are a PITA, and yes they can be worked around... Pluraleyes works, most of the time... but syncing would be the easiest of issues to solve.

I have used the 5D at live music venues and find that it doesn't like flash photography pointed in it's direction, nor does it at all like "strobe effect" lighting, the likes of which accompany nearly any live pop music performance. If there will be camera flash bulbs popping off from the audience or strobe lighting.. beware.

That being said, if the show is for the purpose of "filming".. .which is to say that the cameras have priority, and you can control the lighting, it would be the same as shooting a show on film (12 minute loads, manual control of lens' that are on jibs etc etc)...

I shoot a fair share of multi-cam concerts in small and medium sized venues, and while I absolutely LOVE the 5D I wouldn't choose it for a live show unless the performance we specifically for the purpose of the cameras and teh production.

I find I use the 5D most effectively when I ask myself how comfortably I would shoot film for the same coverage. Can it be done, of course... but for the gains you'd achieve in style and look, you'd be putting yourself at a major disadvantage in your ability to at the very least capture the event in it's entirety.
 
Wilbah

Thanks, thats some good advise.
Actually, even though it will be a packed hall the filming is priority, so we can have the lighting pretty much like we want. Also it is a quite calm music togheter with a big orchestrea so I think we will be alrigt, not any strobes and probably no flashes as well.

We will also be able to film one reaharsal. They will dress and light excactly as for the show so we will be able to take some nice close ups at instruments in that time, this is going to be quite instrumental so this will help us in coverage.

But yeay, wot worries me is the coverage, but I think we will be alright as long as we can handle the focus issue. Will the guys on steadycams and cranes be able to take focus.
I think we will light it enought for us to shoot at about 400 iso and 5.6F wich should make it a little (very little) easier than shooting it as F2.8.


and, normaly I would never do this with 5Ds, at least not until there are some nice firmware from canon to take care of some issues and a proper way of editing this. But we will manage in some way, either with streamclip or hopefully the Adobe Mercury Playback Engine (when it comes out) will help us.

And off course, it is a challenge, and if we make it I think it will look fantastic.
 
Hey Smogen. (That a real name?)

I shot a live show recently with a multi camera setup. We used 2 5D2s and 2Z1s plus another sony cam as a wide safety. Batch retimed everything and pro resed everything. Sound was multi track from the desk plus ambience. I preferred the Canon footage, less noise and far sharper. Ok you need good focusing, but I think the effort is worth it.

We used 16 and 32gig cards, mix of speeds. The 16s were UDMA, the 32s were 30x.

Make sure you stagger the point where the 12 min mark comes. I did this by stop/start at 8 mins on one, 10 on the other. All cams were on tripods, mix of lenses. Client V happy.

Where is the shoot? If it's in the south I'd be happy to come along. Pete @ Hocus is a friend, might be able to do something with his remote focus - it works well on the 5D2.

You could always record via HDMI on to the Matrox box > macbook pro. If you have a fast intel (8 core) you can record direct into pro res. You need to record in camera as well as the HDMI records the Red dot! You replace the red dot area with the vid from the cards...
 
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Hi Echobass!

Na, Smogen is an alias...real name is Christian.

Interesting to hear that you shoot with different cameras. Was it a big difference in the image? The Z1 is quite handy but it must look very different from the 5D.
We are thinking of taking in a polecam, and the camera on that one should look extremely different compared to the 5D so I am a bit sceptical.

Thanks for the offer of coming along, but the show is in northen Europe, so I guess we will have to do it another time. :)

Thanks for the tip about the MAtrox box, I will defenetly check it out and see if we can get hold of one and what it will cost to rent!.
 
FYI I wouldnt put a lot of trust in the plural eyes program... I had a concert where we recorded (decent) audio from all the cameras and then tried to sync with the board audio - no go.

6 Cameras is going to be FUN in post production... You have to sync 6 cameras every 12ish min with new audio - thats will take some time! Very doable though.

30p will look fine for DVD and Web...
 
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