4K workflows

E

eco_bach

Well-known member
Considering getting into debt with the 1DC, but will wait till after NAB at least. One hesitation I have is the HUGE file size requirements.

Even if I get a 6 or 8TB Thunderbolt would probably configure with RAID 1 or 10 to have some back up so that leaves me with 3 or 4 TB.


1 minute of 1DC 4K footage = approx 3.9 GB file size
which means only 14 hours of storage could be stored on a 3TB drive!
Are my calculations incorrect??

As an option, unless I think I absolutely need 4k masters at a later date, I could automatically convert and downsample to prores 2K for editing and rendering, and essentially delete my 4k masters to conserve disk space.
The reason for shooting 4K in the first place simply to get the extra sharpness and detail not present when shooting 2K fullframe.

I'm wondering how many others who are getting into 4K have thought about this.
 
Pretty sad that you need to shoot in 4k to end up with detailed 1080p. Seems like the long way around. Why not spend more for a sharp 1080p camera and make life easier? Future proof is a marketing gimmic imho. By the time you need 4k there will be better 4k cameras you wish you had been using. And the cycle will go on and on... If the 1Dc was $6,000 I could see the hoop jumping but when the C300 is so close in price, why? Is the 4k downsampled to 1080p that much better than 1080p from the C300? I might guess the C300 has better more accurate color since it is a dedicated video camera. Just my thoughts.
 
In terms of resolution, I would say so yes, absolutely. Having shot with both the C300 and 1DC I can say that although the C300 image is beautiful and very sharp, I was blown away by the 1DC's 4K resolution. With 4096 x 2160, you're going to get a much higher-res image when downsampling to 1080p than you would if you started out with 1920 x 1080. Width wise (4096 vs 1920) we're talking 213% greater, height wise (2160 vs 1080), 200% more.

The fact that the 1DC's 4K isn't raw doesn't really bother me. As my field is documentary film, I have no plans to shoot raw in the near future. For me the benefits of the 1DC's 4K (a part form it's breathtaking cinematic quality) are in the narrative and editing freedom it gives me in post. Conforming 4K into a 1080p timeline means you can do simulated dolly and panning camera moves and close up cut aways at just the right moment in an interview without losing any resolution. It means not having to carry so many lenses. The fact that we can now shoot 24fps at 4K size on a CF card still amazes me.

Somewhere in his article here, I believe Shane Hurlbut mentioned that the 1DC's 4K C-log footage also held up better for color grading than the C300's 1080p C-log footage.

For me the only major advantage of the C300 over the 1DC is audio: XLR inputs. No need to record sound separately. And I do love the C300's monitor with it's waveform display, peaking, etc. I wish the 1DC could acquire this in a future firmware upgrade. But if I had to choose one or the other - the 1DC would win hands down for me, because of it's 4K resolution in such a small lightweight package, end of story.
 
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it's already highly compressed footage, it's less than prores4444 x2 at 1080p, less than prores422 x3 at 1080p, so that won't help in terms of storage requirements, not that much at least.

what is the requirement for the storage in the first place?
how much storage (lets use minutes as the unit) do you need for the next 6 month total? and for every project?
and what how much of the production budget did you set for storage?

do you need to store all the footage that you shot, all the takes? indefinitely?

as a point of reference,
you can have 3TB drives for $140-150
you can have 4TB drives for $170-200
you can have 1.5/3TB lto tapes for $35-40 a tape

for the compression step to feel worthwhile, you would have to go proresLT at 1080p.
 
well, saying that 4k is simply 200% wider and taller and then give better result when downsampled to 1080 is just a silly (logically speaking) argument.
What will downsampling do when you reduce a picture that is twice the size ? It just throws half of the pixel.
So from this point of view , i do not see how there could be any improvement. You cannot put the information of two pixel into one.
But you can make a pixel twice better, if the coding is 4:2:0 then getting more pixels will bring you closer to a 4:2:2 at least if you are working
with a codec that is 4:2:2, because if you work with a 4:2:0 codec, any improvement would be lost.
Again this is probably great for keying, but a doubt there would be a tremendous improvement in the downsampled picture
 
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Here's a link to download sample 1dc clips from James Miller.

https://millercreative.wetransfer.c...57e30ae68a2a3eb7fff18b3620130128212336/eb1709

I have played with them in Vegas on a PC and they produce the best image I've seen in my limited experience. No need to transcode. Simple drag and drop to the timeline with virtually identical presets I've used for other Canon dslr footage.

The output is simply stunning in 2k. Bringing 480mbps 4k down to 25mbps 2k produces a resolution and color that I wouldn't have believed possible. 4k is coming whether we like it or not and 4k content is going to be needed this summer as the new crop of 4k displays hit the market at NAB next month.

The form factor and internal storage are key for my wildlife film application. I'm only a few seconds away from pulling the trigger too.

Just my $0.02
Cheers,
Pete
 
Well I don't see what I said that was silly. I was talking about the 1DC's 4K resolution being noticeably sharper when downsized to 1080p and the creative freedom that gives you in post. I don't believe you're losing half the pixels otherwise there would be no difference in image quality between 4K downsized to 1080p and 1080p proper. And the difference in image clarity is visibly (if not vividly) apparent.

On that note, I second what c3hammer said, 1DC's 4K is the best footage I've ever worked with.
 
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Interesting. So, if one shot the 1Dc and the C300 on a dual tripod with the 1Dc in 4k and the C300 in 1080p and processed the footage to make a 1080p Blu-ray. People could watch that Blu-ray, norice the difference and be able to pick the 1Dc every time it was on the screen?

If it is that much sharper and better I can maybe see the workflow hit, but if needs to be studied to find the improvement then it seems like a lot of work in post & memory cost at this point in time. This is if one would by the 1Dc to be in the role of producing 1080p material. If you have a need or use for 4k footage then it is better than sliced bread at this point.
 
Bassman2003 said:
Interesting. So, if one shot the 1Dc and the C300 on a dual tripod with the 1Dc in 4k and the C300 in 1080p and processed the footage to make a 1080p Blu-ray. People could watch that Blu-ray, norice the difference and be able to pick the 1Dc every time it was on the screen?.
Click to expand...

After transcoding to H264 for BluRay, it's not even 1080 anymore. First thing the compression does is, throwing resolution out of the window.
If you don't record uncompressed, that already happens the first time while recording. So you start with a nominal 4k pixel count, but it doesn't contain 4k worth of information.
And you end up with a nominal 1080 pixel count on BluRay, that doesn't contain 1080 pixel worth of information.

On the other hand, 4k TVs will scale up HD material to 4k and folks keep raving about the better quality compared to HD TVs.

So is it worth the hassle shooting in 4k? You tell me.
 
Nicholas Natteau said:
Well I don't see what I said that was silly. I was talking about the 1DC's 4K resolution being noticeably sharper when downsized to 1080p and the creative freedom that gives you in post. I don't believe you're losing half the pixels otherwise there would be no difference in image quality between 4K downsized to 1080p and 1080p proper. And the difference in image clarity is visibly (if not vividly) apparent.

On that note, I second what c3hammer said, 1DC's 4K is the best footage I've ever worked with.
Click to expand...

In the recent 1D C review done by DVInfo, it shows 1D C 1080p mode resolves around 750 horizontal lines, while 4K mode resolves 1728 horizontal lines.
 
marvinhello said:
In the recent 1D C review done by DVInfo, it shows 1D C 1080p mode resolves around 750 horizontal lines, while 4K mode resolves 1728 horizontal lines.
Click to expand...

And it gets even worse after an other one or two further compression steps for BluRay or broadcast.
You have to be happy, if you end up with 1000 lines on your posh new 4k TV when broadcasted (if they ever broadcast 4k at all).
 
Postmaster said:
And it gets even worse after an other one or two further compression steps for BluRay or broadcast.
You have to be happy, if you end up with 1000 lines on your posh new 4k TV when broadcasted (if they ever broadcast 4k at all).
Click to expand...

That's why 1D C is in "Cinema EOS" line. Its main output platform is digital cinema which will be no loss of resolution when delivered to the audience.
 
Let me share some thoughts and experiences. I have a 5Dmk3 and I had a C100. I've sold the C100 and I'm getting the 1Dc. As soon as I've gotten it, I'm selling the 5Dmk3.

I loved the C100. If you only want sharp 1080p and you "only" do film/videos, run out and get this camera.

I do 50/50 photo/video and I don't want to carry or rig two systems. I also don't want to leave a substantial investment behind by only being able to carry one camera. The 1Dc is expensive, but everything I do from now on: private/business will be using the same body. The investment gap isn't THAT big between mk3+C100 and 1Dc.

The 1Dc:
The 4k files from the 1Dc are incredibly solid. They are big, but when you look at them, grade them or pull stills you go "ahhh, that's where the size went".
Using Canon Log you get a nice flat file, that isn't too flat. I shoot without View Assist, and just look at the LCD for exposure, knowing that I need to stay low on exposure rather than high.

On the C100, pushing the mids of the Log files in post introduces unwanted noise. The 1Dc provides much greater flexibility here. The large, solid native files says "hello". With the 1Dc I feel that I can expose according to Canon's guide, putting gray at IRE33 and then lift in post to taste.

Canon Log is MUCH better than CineStyle.

You can use any CF-card with 90MB/s or greater. I'm picking up Transcend's 128GB 1000x (read 150 write 120) for $370 where I live.

WORKFLOW:
Since I'm on Mac, I do a one time transcode to ProRes 422. I'm currently using MPEG-streamclip as a batch encode solution. There's no degradation taking place here, but I'm looking into if there's a minimal color shift. Might also be the playback engine.

This way I end up with new 4k ProRes master files that are marginally bigger (1.21 GB instead of 1.15GB as an example). These files are butter to FCPX bread. 4k files in a 4k project play in realtime on my MacBook Pro Retina from a WD MyPassport 2TB USB3 drive ($149). This is good for a first cut on the move, or if away from Workstation.

I don't know what to say. Just like shooting with any DSLR.

Someone on Twitter recently posted footage shot at ISO 25.600 on a pitch-black beach. Looked like early evening. Noise levels like ISO 6400 on a 5Dmk2 (noisy) but no banding, sensor patterns or other strange artifacts. One pass through Neat Video and that footage would have been usable. Insane.

You don't need to love this camera, but believe me: you don't want to be the sucker who was knocking it before all the cards were dealt. Had it been from Apple it would have been called, and rightly so, magical.

I've ordered my camera but haven't gotten it yet. I've got a loaner from the nice guys at Lite+Byte here in Zürich that I'm taking it with me on a personal trip to NYC on Monday for about a week. I'll try to be as active as possible on Twitter and post stuff as I go along: @andreemarkefors. Anyone is welcome to follow along.
 
Andreeonline
please keep us posted. Am very curious how the quality of the 1080p HDMI out stacks up against 4k scaled down to 2k.
 
Will do!

But I'm not using external recording. That's the whole purpose of the 1Dc to me: no damn rig.

If I'm hanging something onto it, it's a SmallHD monitor, but not for a trip where I'm out and about on foot.

If file sizes or recording times are an issue and your're looking at 1080p I'd shoot in the S35 mode, which is much better than any other DSLR footage we're used to.

I'd be happy to do some tests anyway, but I don't have the possibility this time around, sorry.
 
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