4K will require hardware update

nosys70 said:
sometimes it is just a marketing trick about language.
If you call your media "SSD", then you compare to others SSD. If you say yours are "special SSD", you just look like a greedy car seller trying to justify why your SSD are twice more expensive than the other.
Red are calling their "SSD" REDMAG , and they sell it 8 time more expensive than SSD , that's all the difference ....
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yeah.. SOMETIMES ... I know the difference between standard SSD and the "PREMIUM" or "Enterprise" SSD .... so I don't need the arguments about they speed, reliability and performance.. but there is a big problem - "BRAND" - every company make they OWN SPECIAL disks and devices, which NOT compatible with others.. it's like every car maker will rule us to use they "own gasoline" .. in case to make it 2-3 times more expensive.. So no wonder that Black Magic Production Camera looks so tempting for many people
As an artist I prefer more color, tone, DR and other options related to image quality ... and less interested in ergonomic and other things which is more important for production ...( I don't shoot commercials and weddings )...
so.. maybe I will find BMPC good enough for all what I want .. and will don't use FS-700 for other than Slow Motion :) ...
 
SergeSmArt said:
...but I want them to REDUCE the price, ( why not? :shocked: I'm in a free country ) ... and I'm not alone with that wish ...:-Happy(DBG):
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What should they reduce it to? $200...$20...$2? You can wish all you want but don't bash a company for their pricing structure. If it's too much, the lack of sales will force them to change the price.
 
I just hope Sony doesn't announce the FS800 right after some of us decide to purchase either the odyssey or Sony 4K recorder. Cause that would make me very angry lol
 
SergeSmArt said:
Stephan! If you read carefully what I says, you will see that I don't "complain" about proprietary media ... but I say about $550 for CARD READER and $829 for BATTERY CHARGER .. as well as $1500 for Codec ...
.. and keep in mind I would prefer to get Sony recorder anyway, even I am "such a filmmaker" ( you are definitely a better one :) ) ... Your argument about RED Epic, F5 and F55 cost looks like compare Honda to Lamborghini :Drogar-BigGrin(DBG)
FS-700 is NOT RED Epic or F55 .. don't you think so ? :) You don't want it to be cheaper? OK, it's up to you, ( maybe you invest in Sony or CD, I don't know )
...but I want them to REDUCE the price, ( why not? :shocked: I'm in a free country ) ... and I'm not alone with that wish ...:-Happy(DBG):
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Serge, i didn't want to offend you as a filmmaker(did i?) i really also want those prices to come down, but i don't think that will happen that fast.

It takes a lot of RnD to achieve a product, and i can understand that CD wants to get some money back via their pricing of their Codec and SSD's. Anyway, they will have to reduce the prices by time. I don't think there will be a huge amount of buyers for their FS700 codec in the beginning, since the 422 compressed 60p codec may be enough for most jobs, but i can see a lot of people renting 4K2K.

The FS700 is not an RED EPIC, and no F55 (though there seem to be similarities from the sensor side after the hard/firmware upgrade :) ) - but after you choose a recording option for the FS700 it becomes a 4K camera, and that's what i compared - pricing of other 4K cameras and recording media.
 
SergeSmArt said:
So.. that's exactly the same what I do !! - compare cost of Sony and CD 4K options to $4000 cost of 4K Black Magic Production Camera !!! :Drogar-Happy(DBG):
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I agree that what BM does is really revolutionary to the industry - 4K for 4k - but to me the FS700 + 4K option is more a real camera than a 4KBMCC. The BMPC will be a great camera for sure, but i simply don't like the fact that you get a camera in an iphone style body, with touchscreen controls only - which makes quick adjustments while looking through an EVF almost impossible. BM could have built their RAW camera technology in a real camera body, with buttons instead of touch, with XLR inputs - i really wonder why they went the iphone route - cost will have been a big factor there.
 
If all you want is a box that shoots 4K, get a BMCC. If you want a video camera that does a heck of a lot more than that, than it will cost a little extra. Comparing the FS700 to the BMCC is like comparing a Swiss Army knife to a machete. Sure the machete does one thing good...but nothing else.
 
I think the 5D III Magic Lantern hack has just opened a new world. It shows that RAW video does not need big, clunky expensive recorders that require huge batteries, SSD cards and lots of money. It only needs a fast Compact Flash card.

Let me see.... record RAW onto a large recorder that I have to rig to my already large camera? Or a CF card? It think I will take the CF card.

A whole new frontier has been opened by a group of hackers. In a few years, RAW recorders and huge costs will be a thing of the past. Not sure if you guys have seen the test videos on www.nofilmschool.com, but the 5DIII RAW hack looks amazingly good.
 
gene_can_sing said:
I think the 5D III Magic Lantern hack has just opened a new world. It shows that RAW video does not need big, clunky expensive recorders that require huge batteries, SSD cards and lots of money. It only needs a fast Compact Flash card.
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Looking at the data requirements of 5D RAW I really think you still need lots of money to shoot raw. The cost of fast 128GB CF cards and storage adds a lot of cost.
 
that's why i see the CD recorder as a "no futur".
There is already tons of recorder on the market and they all get partial success because..
1) they got the wrong codec (mostly for recorders with Prores only), or they get expensive codec option (odissy), when not directly limited by camera model (sony)
2) they want to give a nice monitor, but they fail on that.(you can find tons of better or cheaper monitor)
3) the did not succeed to offer cheap media.

The hyperdeck shuttle is a kind of exception.
It does not force you to pay for an expensive mid performance monitor.
it can accepted regular SSD (while from a limited choice)
it gives you prores, dnxhd and raw for free (and i would pay more to get cineform on it)
it cost only $350
it can accept hdmi AND hd-sdi
you can use as hdmi<-->hd-sdi converter
it is small enough to be mounted on any rig

For sure it has lot of limitation, like not displaying anything (like disk space or battery remaining, not even a blinking led !), not recording 60p.
but if you build a rig, it find its place because it is camera agnostic, small sized and cheap enough.

today , new equipment is rolled so fast, that you can only schedule to purchase modules and connecting them together to get
what you need. A good camera head with nice optics (GH3 ? blackmagic ?) a recorder (hyperdeck shuttle ?) , a good rig, a nice monitor (small HD ?).
And if something better pops up, then you can change only the necessary module.
 
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nosys70 said:
that's why i see the CD recorder as a "no futur".
There is already tons of recorder on the market and they all get partial success because..
1) they got the wrong codec (mostly for recorders with Prores only), or they get expensive codec option (odissy), when not directly limited by camera model (sony)
2) they want to give a nice monitor, but they fail on that.(you can find tons of better or cheaper monitor)
3) the did not succeed to offer cheap media.

The hyperdeck shuttle is a kind of exception.
It does not force you to pay for an expensive mid performance monitor.
it can accepted regular SSD (while from a limited choice)
it gives you prores, dnxhd and raw for free (and i would pay more to get cineform on it)
it cost only $350
it can accept hdmi AND hd-sdi
you can use as hdmi<-->hd-sdi converter
it is small enough to be mounted on any rig

For sure it has lot of limitation, like not displaying anything (like disk space or battery remaining, not even a blinking led !), not recording 60p.
but if you build a rig, it find its place because it is camera agnostic, small sized and cheap enough.

today , new equipment is rolled so fast, that you can only schedule to purchase modules and connecting them together to get
what you need. A good camera head with nice optics (GH3 ? blackmagic ?) a recorder (hyperdeck shuttle ?) , a good rig, a nice monitor (small HD ?).
And if something better pops up, then you can change only the necessary module.
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wtf r u talking?

1) an oled smallhd costs as much as the odysse7
2) no recorder in a affordable price range can handle raw
the odyssey7q is pricey with all that things (ssd/recording options) but it can do things others cant.
u just need to find out what u need and that has its price!
 
so that is exactly what i said.
I never said high end recorder are bad.
Either you need a recorder for special purpose (4:4:4 or high bandwidth or high FPS) or you do not need one.
Most of recorder sold today are just in-between, try to be cheap (and failing) , cutting corners on codec or inputs.
So my guess is either you are cheap, either your are awfully expensive but you provide stellar features.
for instance the only one to be one the cheap side is the hyperdeck.
If the oddissey can find its place in the high end models , so far so good, but i am not sure.
all the rest is in between and has no futur, because it is easier and cheaper to upgrade the camera.
If you spend 3000$ on a recorder, you should expect to keep it at least longer than your camera.
 
It's a fair point if you step back and think why do cameras currently always record highly compressed formats when the first thing that someone does is to go and get an external recorder. This kind of functionality should be part of the camera itself and you can argue that with the 5D now, i think that's the true value - you don't need extra stuff for it.

I don't think you can use the datarate or storage argument anymore. Storage is abundant these days and a small cost compared to everything else...

Of course that should also include monitoring too. Yet another thing everyone has to go and buy.

Monitoring that records just fills a very nice gap in the existing market.

Perhaps cameras manufacturers should just produce a camera head and let everyone add to it.

cheers
paul
 
Daomay said:
I just hope Sony doesn't announce the FS800 right after some of us decide to purchase either the odyssey or Sony 4K recorder. Cause that would make me very angry lol
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They would announce something for 2014 NAB. Probably those DSLR looking video cameras, but even though might work with the recorders that work on FS700
 
paulcurtis said:
It's a fair point if you step back and think why do cameras currently always record highly compressed formats when the first thing that someone does is to go and get an external recorder. This kind of functionality should be part of the camera itself and you can argue that with the 5D now, i think that's the true value - you don't need extra stuff for it.
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I think the 5D III Raw hack has doomed External Recorders. Now that we knows it's possible, nobody is going to want to strap on a recorder, buy some SSDs, more batteries, etc.... (= tons of cash) when you can just have it on a small CF card. The 5DIII hack shows that all that extra crap just is not needed anymore. The mantra for tech is: "If it works the same, is smaller and cheaper" it will replace what's before it.

Personally, I wouldn't invest in a 4K recorder or SSD cards because we've seen the 5DIII hack and it has shown us the future, and RAW is not going to involve big recorders powered by big batteries. It's just going to be cards that work inside the camera, quite possibly CF cards. Man... that makes me happy.
 
correct , but there will always be a catergory of user with a cheap sony cx740 who wants to get sometimes a better capture (for green screen for example or just for backup recoding). they will look for extra cheap recorder.
And another category will look for the high end stuff, to record 4k at 120 fps or something like that.
another purpose for cheap recorder like the hyperdeck is to use it to play high quality movie you could not play with other media like blu-ray.
you can just output your project to dnxhd 220 to a SSD and play it to a video projector.
 
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nosys70 said:
that's why i see the CD recorder as a "no futur".
There is already tons of recorder on the market and they all get partial success because..
1) they got the wrong codec (mostly for recorders with Prores only), or they get expensive codec option (odissy), when not directly limited by camera model (sony)
2) they want to give a nice monitor, but they fail on that.(you can find tons of better or cheaper monitor)
3) the did not succeed to offer cheap media.
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Do you know of any other monitor/recorder in the same price range ($2295) as the Odyssey7Q which offers a 7.7" OLED with professional monitoring functions, such as false color, focus assist, histogram, waveform monitor, and vectorscope (most comparable monitors are in the $2500 range)? None of these monitors have (or ever will have) comparable recording options. The Odyssey7Q comes standard with compressed support up to 1080p60 (yes, we expect to add another CODEC beyond DNxHD). You can also upgrade the Odyssey7Q to record ARRIRAW, Canon C500 Raw, FS700 Raw (2K@240fps), 2K Weisscam Raw and even Quad HD recording. We do this in a 1.2 lb package that requires 8-15W of power.

We use Enterprise quality drives with a MTBF of 2M hours and special power loss protection circuit to prevent corruption in case of a power loss during record. The Odyssey7Q (like the Gemini 444) is designed for use on major motion films (Gemini has been used on 100's of films). Our SSDs do cost more than off-the-shelf consumers types, but they are designed to last for 5 years with a very very low failure rate. However, if you check around, our SSDs are still lower cost (oftentimes, much lower cost) than comparable professional media.

Don't be concerned about the future of our Odyssey7Q, it presently looks very bright!

Mike Schell
Convergent Design
 
gene_can_sing said:
I think the 5D III Raw hack has doomed External Recorders. .
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If you are following all the threads, it's not going as smooth on 5D raw. With expensive 1000x card one guy was able to do 1920/720 but 1920x1080 wasn't working for him. External recorders still will have their place: High frame rates and 2K+ resolution recording.
 
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