4k Upscaling, and ProResRaw

A

Archduk3

Active member
Hi everyone,

Tried searching for this but, couldn't find much on the subject.

I am currently planning to invest in a F35 for personal projects mainly because of the shutter, the color, and just prefer Sony cameras. I have seen upscaling to 4k in post and it looks really great IMO. However I was wondering if there is a way to upscale in real time, using something like this https://cvp.com/product/blackmagic_bmd-convmsdimux4k And of course only applied to the ProRes 444 / 422 stream


My second question is, if anyone of you have tried the F35 out with the most recent Shogun 7?

I contacted Atomos to figure out if it could record ProRes RAW from the F35 (since it has dual SDI input). They answer was that if the camera can output RAW, they should be able to read, and record, it for sure.

//C
 
Sony would have to update the camera to output raw- unlikely to happen. (or someone would need to hack it andromeda style, likely not going to happen.)

Regarding upscaling however, there have been some amazing developments recently. Resolve has built in smart scaling and denoising in its studio version that actually does a pretty decent job. The best upscaling though is probably AI/ machine learning based- this cloud based service produces some amazing results. Id feed it master file after edit/color until they can output master quality files but give it a look:

https://videoai.topazlabs.com/
 
Hunter Hampton said:
Sony would have to update the camera to output raw- unlikely to happen. (or someone would need to hack it andromeda style, likely not going to happen.)
Click to expand...

So the DPX files are not RAW, but uncompressed? Well technically I guess the ProRes Raw could still record it, since it is a capturing format? (I mean I can still record 444XQ from a 8-bit stream, I just won't get the data, right?)

Hunter Hampton said:
Regarding upscaling however, there have been some amazing developments recently. Resolve has built in smart scaling and denoising in its studio version that actually does a pretty decent job. The best upscaling though is probably AI/ machine learning based- this cloud based service produces some amazing results. Id feed it master file after edit/color until they can output master quality files but give it a look:

https://videoai.topazlabs.com/
Click to expand...

I agree, but in terms of actual shooting, I was wondering if it is possible. I would try avoid doing it in post, just getting a 4k file straight.

//C
 
The PSF Sony uses over the dual single link has always been the trouble for recorders. Convergent Design 7Q is going to be the best proven option you can get to get the most out of the camera. Using multiplexer to combine the two signals into one works and opens up other recorder options and complexity. It would be best to get F35 and 7Q and learn the system, you are enthusiastic but still looking into options that have been gone over in length.

How do you record the highest quality 12-bit and 50p out of the F35? With a 7Q. If you have another recorder you would like to use, 10-bit 422 is still incredible and really cheap to record. I personally do not think the multiplexer is worth the hassle of added cables, to each his own.

Trying to record the F35 signal live 4k is certainly possible, but it's not how you want to start out learning this camera.
 
Archduk3 said:
So the DPX files are not RAW, but uncompressed? Well technically I guess the ProRes Raw could still record it, since it is a capturing format? (I mean I can still record 444XQ from a 8-bit stream, I just won't get the data, right?)



I agree, but in terms of actual shooting, I was wondering if it is possible. I would try avoid doing it in post, just getting a 4k file straight.

//C
Click to expand...

yeah straight to 4k would be nice esp raw, but 12-bit rgb to 8k upscale is pretty nuts. Ill prob do a test thread soon with it.
 
yachacha said:
The PSF Sony uses over the dual single link has always been the trouble for recorders. Convergent Design 7Q is going to be the best proven option you can get to get the most out of the camera. Using multiplexer to combine the two signals into one works and opens up other recorder options and complexity. It would be best to get F35 and 7Q and learn the system, you are enthusiastic but still looking into options that have been gone over in length.

How do you record the highest quality 12-bit and 50p out of the F35? With a 7Q. If you have another recorder you would like to use, 10-bit 422 is still incredible and really cheap to record. I personally do not think the multiplexer is worth the hassle of added cables, to each his own.

Trying to record the F35 signal live 4k is certainly possible, but it's not how you want to start out learning this camera.
Click to expand...

True I need to learn a bit about F35 / F65. I have countless hours on F5 / 55 and a few shoots on the Venice, but I hear the F35 is a tricky.

However, the new Shogun 7 has dual link in, and I have been trying to find out everywhere and it seems no one has tried it out. From what I noticed the FS7 needs the RAW module to output RAW, but Shogun can still record ProRes RAW from the “ordinary” SDI.

Hunter Hampton said:
yeah straight to 4k would be nice esp raw, but 12-bit rgb to 8k upscale is pretty nuts. Ill prob do a test thread soon with it.
Click to expand...

Well I was just hoping for a 4k Image in ProRes 444 / 422, if you do this test, please let me know.

C
 
There is no advantage to converting uncompressed fully sampled RGB to Bayer raw other than reduction in file size. What would be the purpose? It won’t improve either IQ or grading flexibility since grading is done in RGB anyway.
Scaling is a separate issue.
 
Razz16mm said:
There is no advantage to converting uncompressed fully sampled RGB to Bayer raw other than reduction in file size. What would be the purpose? It won’t improve either IQ or grading flexibility since grading is done in RGB anyway.
Scaling is a separate issue.
Click to expand...

Thanks for pointing this out. I was mixing modern ideas with tech it can't work with.

But the idea of upscaling is still possible, no?

yachacha said:
It would be best to get F35 and 7Q and learn the system, you are enthusiastic but still looking into options that have been gone over in length.
Click to expand...

Is there a thread bringing up basics that you could suggest (such as power solutions, how to max out the IQ and so on...)?

C
 
Go ahead and buy the Shogun and find out rather than read what I’m trying to tell you. The Gemini and Sound Devices Pix also accept dual link input and don’t work with the F35. It’s not the dual link that is needed but programming to properly recognize the 12-bit dual link psf that Sony uses. Convergent Design did some work to make their recorder work for us. I highly doubt Atomos will do the same. You should buy it and find out for yourself, in the end you will have a nice 10-bit recorder.
 
yachacha said:
Go ahead and buy the Shogun and find out rather than read what I’m trying to tell you. The Gemini and Sound Devices Pix also accept dual link input and don’t work with the F35. It’s not the dual link that is needed but programming to properly recognize the 12-bit dual link psf that Sony uses. Convergent Design did some work to make their recorder work for us. I highly doubt Atomos will do the same. You should buy it and find out for yourself, in the end you will have a nice 10-bit recorder.
Click to expand...

Matt covered that in the article I linked to, as well.
 
yachacha said:
Go ahead and buy the Shogun and find out rather than read what I’m trying to tell you. The Gemini and Sound Devices Pix also accept dual link input and don’t work with the F35. It’s not the dual link that is needed but programming to properly recognize the 12-bit dual link psf that Sony uses. Convergent Design did some work to make their recorder work for us. I highly doubt Atomos will do the same. You should buy it and find out for yourself, in the end you will have a nice 10-bit recorder.
Click to expand...

I'm sorry if I offended you, but I was just following up my post.

I clearly realized there are other issues right now, main being that ProRes RAW is for Bayer CMOS, not CCD. Which probably would be the main issue even if I could record the signal.

So I learned a lot in 24h, and I hope you can bare with me, or maybe point me in the right direction.

As for Atomos, you are probably right, especially since they can even give a true 444 recording either.

Personally, just want to make sure I have a budget for it all before I pull the trigger, rather than just buying half a kit for 6 grand.

C
 
What are the advantages to upscaling? Is it just to meet delivery criteria? It's not like you can add detail that wasn't there in the first place, so I don't really see the point.
 
Grug said:
What are the advantages to upscaling? Is it just to meet delivery criteria? It's not like you can add detail that wasn't there in the first place, so I don't really see the point.
Click to expand...

That's what I would have thought. Although it seems that AI upscalers can paint in details based on understanding what the object is and how it would look in greater detail...
 
Grug said:
What are the advantages to upscaling? Is it just to meet delivery criteria? It's not like you can add detail that wasn't there in the first place, so I don't really see the point.
Click to expand...

Just another level of control over your image. If you let someone's TV or device upscale your image automatically, you won't have a say in what scaling algorithm was used.

You could also potentially denoise and regrain the image for the higher resolution. Even if the actual image doesn't have any more fidelity, an increase in fidelity of grain can have a different experience.

But that's all post stuff. I can't really see the advantage of upscaling in real time during production outside of just convenience of not having to do it later.
 
Probably the only advantage of upscalling on the go is if you must hand off 4K at the end of the day after shooting. Besides that post will give you more control, which will mean better quality and will also save time, as you can upscale only what you will use.

But upscaled 4K F35 footage sounds interesting and has the potential to look great. I would say probably better or at least as good as Alexa upscaled footage since the F35 has more pixels.
 
I think the gigapixel ai *is* actually adding in detail that is not present in normal upscaling, but was present in the scene- probably a mix of temporal resolution with image/object training for the “ai”. Definitely try it for yourself, they have a free demo upload on the site.
 
Grug said:
What are the advantages to upscaling? Is it just to meet delivery criteria? It's not like you can add detail that wasn't there in the first place, so I don't really see the point.
Click to expand...

True. But 4k upscaled F35 so far looks a lot better than some true 4k cameras. And with the advantage of the CCD colours.

LochnessDigital said:
Just another level of control over your image. If you let someone's TV or device upscale your image automatically, you won't have a say in what scaling algorithm was used.

You could also potentially denoise and regrain the image for the higher resolution. Even if the actual image doesn't have any more fidelity, an increase in fidelity of grain can have a different experience.

But that's all post stuff. I can't really see the advantage of upscaling in real time during production outside of just convenience of not having to do it later.
Click to expand...

Probably not.

The thing is I would love to try it, and currently, it seems no one has tried it, so we do not know if it is a dud or not.

Hopefully this pandemic debacle ends soon and work picks up again, because if someone in the LA area would let me at least try to hook it up to their F35 / Odyssey 7q setup, we would know.

C
 
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