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- Thread starter Jim Simon
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Noiz2
Sound Ninja
Time code is a rather specific thing so the above makes no sense. Nothing records TC unless there is either a TC in, Out or both. It would be pointless otherwise since the whole point is that all of your machines are running the same TC so you can sync them. Every recorder I have seen since DAT records either a running time (on tape) or clock time stamp of files. Even most handheld recorders can put Time Of Day in the file name and they all put TOD in either the creation or modification date metadata fields.
Jim Feeley
Veteran
Use Audacity to split the stereo files into mono files, then use Wave Agent to combine the mono files into a single poly file.
Or raise your budget for the recorder.
That doesn't make sense. Plenty of cameras can record timecode with no way of getting timecode in or out. It's simply generated by the device for internal use only. Sometimes it's user adjustable, sometimes it's based on time of day. But it's timecode nonetheless. The GH4 has user adjustable timecode. The BMPCC uses time of day timecode.
The Zoom H4n records timecode based on time of day. So does the Roland R-05.
None of these devices have a way to get timecode into them, or to get their internally generated timecode out (that I know of).
graywolf
Well-known member
I think what you mean is nothing syncs TC, unless....
What Scott is referring to is using timecode in any meaningful way requires a TC input and/or output. You can set up time of day on a recorder or camera if you want, but if it isn't synced with anything it kind of doesn't really matter if you are trying to sync with other devices. If you are only rolling that one device and set it up as time of day, then I guess that's fine, but it really doesn't matter when it comes to referencing other video or anything outside of that recorder.
If you need 4 inputs with TC capability then you'll need to find something used, but even then they won't get down to your budget. I'm looking on ebay right now and I see a few Zoom F4 recorders that went used for $500. You might be able to get your hands on a used Zaxcom Deva II, but that's a legacy machine and getting the files out of it these days can be a pain if you don't know what you are doing. Double your budget and you are getting there. Or you can just rent something if this is just a short term need.
I don't think that's true either. I find both user generated and time of day timecode very helpful when editing, even if I can't use that timecode for sync.
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No, I was looking to improve the post process for event shoots. I film with the BMPCC, which needs help with audio and in low light but has only enough room on top for one of those 'solutions'. My thinking was if I could offload the audio recording entirely then I could put a light on top. But for the audio, I need both a board feed and nat sound.
The H4n is soooo close to perfect. If it could record a 4 channel .wav with time of day file naming, it would be.
Noiz2
Sound Ninja
Well let me explain. Time Code is not a clock or Time of day or an internal clock time stamp. It is Time Code, it is very specific, it counts frames and reflects frame rates. Cameras and pretty much all recorders put a time stamp of files, that is NOT Time Code. DAT recorders, VHS, DA88 all put a time counter of some sort in the recording but only high end professional recorders had Time Code.
The purpouse of Time Code is to keep deferent devices locked at better than frame resolution (generally 80 or 100 subframe devisions. This ONLY works if you can cable devices together at least at the start to jamsync the devices TC clocks.
So if you say you need TC then you are automatically asking for actual TC not some internal TOD (Time Of Day) clock that is not in sync with anything else.
TOD is useful but not for syncing devices, or files. It is useful for getting in the ballpark and telling which files are supposed to go together. Then you need to sync by ear or with something like PluralEyes.
The purpouse of Time Code is to keep deferent devices locked at better than frame resolution (generally 80 or 100 subframe devisions. This ONLY works if you can cable devices together at least at the start to jamsync the devices TC clocks.
So if you say you need TC then you are automatically asking for actual TC not some internal TOD (Time Of Day) clock that is not in sync with anything else.
TOD is useful but not for syncing devices, or files. It is useful for getting in the ballpark and telling which files are supposed to go together. Then you need to sync by ear or with something like PluralEyes.
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graywolf
Well-known member
If my camcorder had TC-out, it could start the F4 and keep it in sync. The F4 has a setting that starts recording when it received a timecode signal from the camera, and keeps it in sync until the timecode stops. Unfortunately, my old camcorders do not have TC-out and I cannot afford ones that do.
I keep thinking that maybe there might be some way of recording a timecode signal from the F4 to an audio track of the camcorder to be matched in the editing software, but have not looked real hard for a way to do that.
If I ever win the lotto, I will buy a camcorder that will work with the F4's TC, and connect them wirelessly.
I keep thinking that maybe there might be some way of recording a timecode signal from the F4 to an audio track of the camcorder to be matched in the editing software, but have not looked real hard for a way to do that.
If I ever win the lotto, I will buy a camcorder that will work with the F4's TC, and connect them wirelessly.
Noiz2
Sound Ninja
An option that might work for the OP is the DR701, though lie pretty much all the choices it's over his budget.
The 701 will jam sync to the TC in the HDMI signal. Since that is the only way to get TC into the 701 it's not a very universally useful implementation of TC but if your camera puts a TC stream in the HDMI out (my impression is that many do) then you can get some really useful TC in your recordings. And it can be set to auto start on receiving TC.
The 701 will jam sync to the TC in the HDMI signal. Since that is the only way to get TC into the 701 it's not a very universally useful implementation of TC but if your camera puts a TC stream in the HDMI out (my impression is that many do) then you can get some really useful TC in your recordings. And it can be set to auto start on receiving TC.
I checked. It records two stereo files, not a single 4 channel file.
That is my primary need, here. I call it "timecode" cause Premiere Pro, Audition and DaVinci Resolve report it as such.
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Rick R
Veteran
- Wise decision.. B&H great prices don't come with pro recommendation .. Contact the usual suspect shops that will likly offer then same price with better customer support. Nothing against B&H though... if you know what you want... their prices are insane :nads:
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Often people think that 'TimeCode' is a synchronisation system...It is NOT.
Time code is just a way of 'numbering' the frames of media in Hours, Minutes, Seconds & frames. (just like in the old days where 35mm film had frame numbers printed between the sprocket holes)
Altho its great to have the 'same' numbers on each piece of media its NOT essential.
Time code is just a way of 'numbering' the frames of media in Hours, Minutes, Seconds & frames. (just like in the old days where 35mm film had frame numbers printed between the sprocket holes)
Altho its great to have the 'same' numbers on each piece of media its NOT essential.
Noiz2
Sound Ninja
Sorry but that is just not correct. 35mm didn't use TC, film (35mm, 16mm, 8mm, etc.) used Feet and Frames. In film it was used for keeping track of where you were and for sync., but not as a sync signal but as a way to get all your reels to the same place. All "units" in sound post went through a machine that stamped the Footage on the webs of the sprocket holes every foot in colored wax.
TC as such was used for sync in video and audio. It was used for all the same reasons as F+F but it was also used as a running sync signal. It was really the only way to keep multiple decks in sync.
Film depended on start marks and a bi-phase signal to keep sprockets on the film locked to the sprockets on the dubbers. Video and magnetic tape relied on TC because it has no sprocket holes.
With audio there was on the cheap end of things FSK sync but that just kept things running at the same speed and didn't have location info so it was very dodgy with actual sync since it depended on you starting machines at the same time etc. So it was mostly useful for slaving midi sequencers that could essentially start instantly.
It is not at all essential to have the same numbers on each piece but then you will have to offset each clip by it's difference to get them in sync., so the whole auto sync by matching TC goes out the door and unless your using something like PluralEyes you are syncing mostly by ear so the TC was only useful for knowing which clips belong to each other, and creation date/time will do that..
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As to Resolve. On DSLR clips or other cameras that are not generating TC Resolve gives each a start TC of 00:00:00:00 and counts frames from there. It may actually write that into the clip when imported? It's not using TOD as a start point, it's just counting frames in the clip. They are not referring to the files origination time as TC, though I can see how the auto generated TC fields can be confusing.
It is possible that some cameras are taking the internal clock and filling in the TC metadata field with a value. It doesn't buy you much but I guess it would look more "professional".
I grew up on TC and F+F but I am not a big advocate these days for most people.
The reasons are a couple fold. First TC (especially in NTSC land) is confusing. Concepts like drop frame and pulldowns and fractional frames can send you deep down the rabbit hole and are easy to get wrong.
Second it is hardly ever needed these days. You will probably never need to lock two analog decks together, or even use a tape based anything. TC on files is just a start stamp and then your post software counts frames from there, it is not a continuous track like it was.
Third there is really good auto sync functions on most NLE's that don't require TC.
The one place TC is still used a bunch for sync. is on multi camera shoots where you want everyone marching to the same drummer. These types of shoots are also more likely to have a tight post timeline and want to sync with TC.
Other than that TC is mostly just used as the time line reference, where in the show does X happen. Even on a larger budget film it is almost exclusively used in post as a positional reference not as a sync signal. For one thing it is not nearly accurate enough to sync digital streams. Even in those multi camera shoots the TC is just a positional reference, you will be using Word Clock for syncing the streams.
For the purposes of the OP the big question would be does you cameras clips come in starting at 00:00:00:00, or do they start at roughly TOD?
Looking through a couple of Resolve projects all of my DSLR clips start at 00:00:00:00 and all of my WAV files do also. If you slide down the fields a bit though you will find the "Date Modified" field and that is your TOD (plus date).
IF your camera actually fills the TC start time with something useful then maybe it's worth looking for a recorder with TC, if it doesn't there is little reason to spend the extra $. I really doubt that any recorder that doesn't record real TC will put anything in the TC field.
You may find a utility that can fill the TC field based on TOD info but personally I wouldn't waste the time in most circumstances.
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The BMPCC does, as does the Zoom H4n and Roland R-05. That's why I want the new recorder to do so as well.
So...anyone with the new H4n Pro model? Will it record a single, 4 channel .wav file?
Noiz2
Sound Ninja
So as most of these posts go...
What is your camera? You said DSLR, the BMPCC is not a DSLR. I have files from the H4n that don't have any real TC info so?
It is looking a bit like trolling. But you have a lot of posts so?
I still don't see the reason for what you want. IF you don't use real TC then there is almost no benefit. If your devices are not jam synced then there is really no benefit and unless you are doing try-level sync there is very little benefit.
So why do you want TC???
What is your camera? You said DSLR, the BMPCC is not a DSLR. I have files from the H4n that don't have any real TC info so?
It is looking a bit like trolling. But you have a lot of posts so?
I still don't see the reason for what you want. IF you don't use real TC then there is almost no benefit. If your devices are not jam synced then there is really no benefit and unless you are doing try-level sync there is very little benefit.
So why do you want TC???