35mm still photography lenses solution

[Zack Birlew]

Is this thread still alive? I don't even know if everything's on topic anymore. So far, no SLR still lenses on the RED. If you want to argue about SLR lenses, I suggest the Still Photography forum. Have a nice day!

 

[tnle2]

I think the thread at dvinfo got heated when someone said that the image quality of a Canon EF "L" series lens was not good enough for cine use (a 2/3" Canon HD lens was better according to the poster). That doesn't jive because Century Optics already converts several EF primes, tilt shift lenses and a wide angle zoom for film work. Also, Canon EF "L" lenses work just fine on the EOS-1Ds, which has a bigger, higher resolution sensor than the RED.

But in the end, I think everyone agreed that high-quality professional still lenses are optically good enough. You just have to do a lot of work to re-engineer the housing and the focus, zoom and iris mechanisms for cine-style shooting.

Also, I think you need to change the lens mount because the flange focal distance is less than a PL mount. This is why you can't just make a mechanical adapter for still lenses to PL. From wikipedia:

"This distance influences whether a lens from one system can be mounted with an adaptor to a camera body of another system. In order to produce an adaptor that permits focus to infinity without corrective optics, the flange-to-film distance the lens is designed for must be greater than that of the camera body it is to be adapted to, to give room for the adaptor."

The flange focal distance for still camera mounts are here:
http://www.kyphoto.com/classics/penadapter.html

The flange focal distance for the PL mount is 52mm. Since all of the still camera mounts are less than 52mm, mounting any of them to a PL mount is a no-go.

 

[stokestack]

now speaking seriously, i'm afraid that taubkin is right.. not all the 35mm still photography lenses have electronics..

I never said they ALL have them. If you actually read the post, I said most CURRENT SLR lenses, at least from Canon and Nikon, and I even noted that I didn't know about Nikon because I don't have any.

we are speaking about those lenses that we attach to our reflex cameras with manual aperture ring.. manual or AF

No, we are not. We are talking about adapting 35mm still-SLR lenses to the Red, and how this will be a problem because (among other reasons) many of them DO NOT have aperture rings. One last time: This necessitates some kind of controller and access to the electrical contacts on the lenses.

Please read the thread before posting; it cuts down on antagonism and the need to continually repeat things like the above.

Tnle2 brings up a good point: the focus between the back of the lens and the "film" plane, and how an adapter may not be possible if the lens winds up too far from the film plane. However, looking at the renderings of the camera, it looks like the whole front of the camera comes off and is reasonably thick. It seems quite possible that someone could make a replacement front plate with an SLR-lens mount that is closer to the sensor.

 

[filmmaker1977]

Is this thread still alive?

for sure.. even if people like you don't like it..

I don't even know if everything's on topic anymore.

are you sure?..

So far, no SLR still lenses on the RED.

again: are you sure?.. why? maybe you are one of the RED team and we don't know.. are you sure?

If you want to argue about SLR lenses, I suggest the Still Photography forum.

bad joke, sorry..

 

[Emanuel]

Is this thread still alive? I don't even know if everything's on topic anymore. So far, no SLR still lenses on the RED. If you want to argue about SLR lenses, I suggest the Still Photography forum. Have a nice day!

If you don't want to buy it, why are you posting here? Have you a set of PL mount lenses to sell? I'm sorry too but if you don't like, please just turn the channel. It's a free forum, isn't it?

 

[filmmaker1977]

now speaking seriously, i'm afraid that taubkin is right.. not all the 35mm still photography lenses have electronics..

I never said they ALL have them. If you actually read the post, I said most CURRENT SLR lenses, at least from Canon and Nikon, and I even noted that I didn't know about Nikon because I don't have any.

thus, maybe it's easier to understand why you said what you've been saying.. did you see the aristocrats? (non off-topic) but it wouldn't be necessary to get what you aren't saying perhaps it may be more readable than your written (formated) words..

we are speaking about those lenses that we attach to our reflex cameras with manual aperture ring.. manual or AF

No, we are not. We are talking about adapting 35mm still-SLR lenses to the Red

right! we are speaking about the same..

Please read the thread before posting; it cuts down on antagonism and the need to continually repeat things like the above.

who doesn't read the thread? who is continually repeat things like the above after the taubkin and evinsky's inputs?

Tnle2 brings up a good point

yep

:dankk2: for the support Emanuel and be welcome U2! just perfect..

Felis, no hard feelings.. but if you can't help, don't bother, okay?

 

[filmmaker1977]

what really matters

what really matters

the focus between the back of the lens and the "film" plane, and how an adapter may not be possible if the lens winds up too far from the film plane. However, looking at the renderings of the camera, it looks like the whole front of the camera comes off and is reasonably thick. It seems quite possible that someone could make a replacement front plate with an SLR-lens mount that is closer to the sensor.

maybe this option here? http://www.centuryoptics.com/pdf/CpFilmPL.pdf

for close-up work though doesn't allow infinity focus (last page)
or an extender adapter (page 3) 1.4x to a wideangle or zoom Nikon 17-35 or Canon 16-35?

and how this will be a problem because (among other reasons) many of them DO NOT have aperture rings.

(ring modification stuff) as someone recently posted: http://www.filmcamerakit.com/html/lens_modifications.htm

One last time: This necessitates some kind of controller and access to the electrical contacts on the lenses.

you are insisting, hein.. can anyone enlight us, please?

 

[Emanuel]

Concerning The Aristocrats quote, very clever my friend... (I'm speaking of course seriously... These boards come in the written form but the ideas behind, they aren't!)

EDIT -- I noticed that you edited your posts configuration, good finding.

 

[KnockOutFilms]

I'm a bit confused about this pl to still 35mm conversion. Doesn't there already exist an adapter? I seem to recall working with an Aaton shooter who had an adapter for his XTR that allowed him to put his Nikon f mount lenses on his Aaton. I'm almost 100% sure. If the Red has a PL mount, then, what's the difference. The Aaton adapter worked with its focal plan (if I'm correct about that)

Am I missing something? I certainly could be mistaken.

Cheers,
Chris

 

[tnle2]

I'm a bit confused about this pl to still 35mm conversion. Doesn't there already exist an adapter? I seem to recall working with an Aaton shooter who had an adapter for his XTR that allowed him to put his Nikon f mount lenses on his Aaton. I'm almost 100% sure. If the Red has a PL mount, then, what's the difference. The Aaton adapter worked with its focal plan (if I'm correct about that)

AFAIK, there is no still photography lens to PL adapter (mechanical only) that allows full operation of the lens. Like filmmaker1977 said, Century makes some adapters that are for close-up work only since you can't focus to infinity.

Your friend's XTR may have an Aaton Universal mount, which has a flange distance of 40mm and is less than the Nikon F mount at 46.5mm. But XTRs also come with a PL mount and if it does, you'd have to change the PL mount on the camera body to an Aaton mount or something with a shorter flange distance. I think most Aatons have interchangeable lens ports.

 

[donatello]

the Century conversion of Still photo lens are usually to a nuetral mount (doesn't fit any camera) ..then you buy any of the mounts listed PL, panavision , canon, screw etc and put that on the nuetral mount .. the nuetral mount makes the lens useable on any camera at any time - so maybe this week you use it with a PL camera and next week you use it with a Aaton ...

Aaton has different adaptors to use with their 16/35 camera's .. they were around $300 back in 80's ..
when i shot a feature with a NPR ( which has a screw mt and a NPR bay mt) we rented a PL to screw mt adaptor for prime lens ... when we used the arri 10-100T2 zoom we put a arri bay to npr bay adaptor on the zoom as it was too heavy to use on the NPR screw mt ( without support rods) ..

i do recall some F mt to PL adaptors back in 80-90's but i mostly used those with the longer Nikon lens ( 180mm and above) .. always rented set of arri primes so never tried it on wider nikon lens BUT there may have been something about using very wide nikons with the PL to F adaptor that it could it mirror when you mounted it ??

seems with the shift to low budgets shooting video in late 90's the adaptor manufacturers have gone away as there's no longer a demand ... now with several new camera's offering PL mounts it could create a demand for still adaptors to PL mount ...

 

[tnle2]

FYI, Graeme has confirmed that the RED camera will have interchangeable lens mounts:

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showpost.php?p=491408&postcount=26

So no worries!

 

[stokestack]

who doesn't read the thread? who is continually repeat things like the above after the taubkin and evinsky's inputs?

At least one of them, like you, didn't understand that the issue under debate is adapting electronically-controlled-aperture SLR lenses to the Red. And no one ever said that those are the only lenses that exist.

Also, your reference:

"ring modification stuff) as someone recently posted: http://www.filmcamerakit.com/html/lens_modifications.htm"

confirms that you don't understand the issue, because that kit involves putting gears on EXISTING RINGS on the lens. The lenses we're talking about HAVE NO APERTURE RINGS. Therefore, that kit is useless for addressing the problem.

But really, all that information is right there in the thread, and your game has long grown tiresome. Or you have a legitimate language barrier, which of course is forgivable but might dictate some extra care on your part when reading and responding.

 

[Zack Birlew]

Take it easy guys, no need to make things personal.

It's good to see things got back on topic, still lenses on the RED. So, now that Graeme has mentioned interchangeable lens mounts and assuming we'll have more options than just a Nikon mount adapter, what kind of lenses will you guys try to use on the RED?

 

[taubkin]

Hey Stoke sorry for the long reply.

Okay, you're saying that you want it to work with electronical controlled SLR lenses. That's cool. The way you wrote it it gave me the impression you were saying that for RED to work with photographic lenses, it HAD to have electronic lens connectors, so that is innacurate.

Yes, if you want to work with eletronic lenses, you'd have to have that. But my question is: Why would you want to do that? As an AC, I wouldn't want to have to ask for the camera operator so I could know the lens aperture all the time. Or even havng to ask the cinematographer to check that for me (!?) in the EVF. I think RED taking SLR manual lenses is darn good news. Afterall, isn't the range of manual lenses availiable today enough? With interchangeable lens mounts, any engeneer could design a mount for whatever lens you might want (Leica, Nikon, Minolta, who knows!), and any lens engeneer could adjust the port for flange focal distance. I mean, if you want a cheap lens solution, you can buy nikon mount, if you want more expensive, use Leicas, or go for used cine lenses, such as PL mount LOMOs, or old Zeiss and Cookes.

So, for me, honestly, so what if I can't use Canon eletronic lenses or nikon DXs. If I want cheap, I can have it, and if I want the best, I can have it too. If I want a moderate solution, I can buy a RED Zoom, who knows! That's pretty good news to me.

 

[filmmaker1977]

thanks Jack.. now i can also say no hard feelings reversely..

stoke, frankly, are you a kid? i'm asking because (i was ironic before and you didn't catch it..) i don't see any other reason than this one to justify your hostile behaviour.. and it's not only regarding myself.. taubkin including.. one of the most cool guys here.. how dare you? this is a friendly forum.. if you have doubts, ask Jarred.. and WE DON'T WANT this thread close, if you wish, please, don't post here okay?

if you read well the thread you will see that i'm JUST an amateur photographer.. though i do directing for living.. when i'm saying silly assessments, i will not try to justify all what i've been saying as being the owner of the truth.. i'm used to ask first or make a good healthy laugh with myself later.. when it is necessary but not just because when there is someone that is thinking so..
:bath:
edit
did taubkin answer your questions?..

 

[Emanuel]

At least one of them, like you, didn't understand that the issue under debate is adapting electronically-controlled-aperture SLR lenses to the Red. And no one ever said that those are the only lenses that exist.

stokestack, did you read the filmmaker1977's "The Aristocrats" quote? The question is: you are speaking about electronically-controlled-aperture SLR lenses but we're just asking to Jim a Nikon F mount or Canon mount to our 35mm photography lenses collection. 'cause we believe those manual lenses have quality enough to deal with the RED sensor. That's all!

 

[filmmaker1977]

The lenses we're talking about HAVE NO APERTURE RINGS. Therefore, that kit is useless for addressing the problem.

..what lenses we're talking about?..

Emanuel, me likes that : «..collection..»

 

[taubkin]

one of the most cool guys here..

Hey, thanks for that! :thumbsup:

 

[filmmaker1977]

Hey, thanks for that! :thumbsup:

you're welcome!.. pure juice..

FYI, Graeme has confirmed that the RED camera will have interchangeable lens mounts:

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showpost.php?p=491408&postcount=26

So no worries!

following the Tim previous post answering other dv info user, it seems good news.. dankk2: tnle2)
because interchangeable lens mounts if out of that particular context it doesn't mean necessarily SLR mounts.. and there is a lot of interested people everywhere (RED will be a success with still photography lenses..)

the Century conversion of Still photo lens are usually to a nuetral mount (doesn't fit any camera) ..then you buy any of the mounts listed PL, panavision , canon, screw etc and put that on the nuetral mount .. the nuetral mount makes the lens useable on any camera at any time - so maybe this week you use it with a PL camera and next week you use it with a Aaton ...

Aaton has different adaptors to use with their 16/35 camera's .. they were around $300 back in 80's ..
when i shot a feature with a NPR ( which has a screw mt and a NPR bay mt) we rented a PL to screw mt adaptor for prime lens ... when we used the arri 10-100T2 zoom we put a arri bay to npr bay adaptor on the zoom as it was too heavy to use on the NPR screw mt ( without support rods) ..

i do recall some F mt to PL adaptors back in 80-90's but i mostly used those with the longer Nikon lens ( 180mm and above) .. always rented set of arri primes so never tried it on wider nikon lens BUT there may have been something about using very wide nikons with the PL to F adaptor that it could it mirror when you mounted it ??

seems with the shift to low budgets shooting video in late 90's the adaptor manufacturers have gone away as there's no longer a demand ... now with several new camera's offering PL mounts it could create a demand for still adaptors to PL mount ...

donatello, nice post.. thank you for the help..

so it means that RED must offer an adapter to this kind of neutral mount just to handling with the century adapters or from any other manufacturer?