2K Scaled or Windowed

J

JTmoney

Active member
Please bare with me, as my knowledge is limited. Looking at the RED site, I said to myself 'I will build a workflow around 2k scaled, useing 35mm glass. Cause I get oversampled 2k from 4k worth of sensor. It sounded good. Then I was told, to get the most flexibility out of my dynamic range I should be shooting RAW. Is this true? Would I get better dynamic range shooting 2k RAW windowed or 2k RGB scaled. What is the difference between RAW and RGB? and any advantages to RGB over RAW?

Thank you for any help as I'm still learning:)
 
2K RGB or RAW

2K RGB or RAW

Good question. Dynamic range doesn't have to be affected by RAW to RGB conversion provided the bit depth is maintained. (Note: Most still cameras that offer RAW and JPEG (RGB) recording DONT - JPEG is at 8 bits only)

RAW is, literally, the raw sensor data - which is sampled as a series of 4 pixel R G B G squares. Each of these pixels is then converted to three R G B pixels for video processing to take place. So for any given frame resolution there are 3 times as many pixels in RGB v's RAW.

So a key advantage of RAW is the data is more compact, but RGB is much more easily understood by existing post production tools. RGB may or may not have white balance and gamma applied to it depending on whether you are using a "video" or "film" style workflow - i.e "video" = immediate editing v's "film" = maximum color processing flexibility.

In any case, if you recorded RAW - via a RED-RAID as an example - you must convert from RAW to RGB before you can edit or color correct.

As to 2K RAW v's 2K scaled RGB. If you want 35mm Depth of Field, then 2K scaled RGB is a great choice (or 4K RAW to RED-RAID). The main point of using native 2K RAW or 2K RGB derived from 2K RAW, is the potential of a 2x increase in camera frame rate - i.e from 60fps to 120fps .....
 
The 1080i codec may also be useful as DVCPRO HD cassette deliverable for broadcasters who demand a tape and will accept that instead of an HDCAM.

REDCODE is a family of Wavelet based codecs, that we'll describe in much more detail later. Suffice to say that we are working through optimizing the competing requirements of max resolution / frame rate / quality / editability / storage space / CPU horsepower needed, so stay tuned.
Click to expand...

Stuart English posted this reply to someone over at DV info. It appears to shed some more light on what Red code will be. A "family of codecs" and not just a Red Codec full stop. Now that sounds really interesting giving us all plenty of choice. Am i reading into this right!!

Michael
 
Yeah, but don't you need to put the RAW 2K output through an RGB conveerter for monitoring on set ? , Otherwise, you get an unappealing RAW image from which to try and judge your aesthetic. I know that the image can be manipulated in post to achieve the results you want, but it's more challenging to know you're getting the aesthetic you want, on set. Also, if you intend on doing any in camera image mods, then RAW won't show it as well (unless put through a converter).

Please correct me , if I'm wrong.

That's why I think the 2K scaled option is the best. You get a closer approximation of the final image on set (can adjust accordingly), don't have the storage requirements, and still have the 35mm DOF.

I don't know what the colour fidelity difference would be between 2K scaled and RAW, though.

Has the RED team decided on if it's including LUT's ?

:beer:



RED # wish I was higher
 
Stuart English,

Thank you much. I have a much better understanding now. The only thing better than the concept behind the RED ONE camera, is the people behind it! So its 2k scaled for me, till an affordable 4k solution comes along. Emanule thank you for link.............. :)
 
The camera has a full image processing pipeling on-board, which will be active when you're shooting RAW (or not) so you can see what you're shooting in full, glorious, beautiful colour.

Non-RAW video does not, necessarily have a lower dynamic range than RAW, but due to the total lack of image processing, RAW is guaranteed to have the best dynamic range, as you can't make any camera image control mistakes that could effect dynamic range.

Graeme
 
Graeme_Nattress said:
The camera has a full image processing pipeling on-board, which will be active when you're shooting RAW (or not) so you can see what you're shooting in full, glorious, beautiful colour.

Non-RAW video does not, necessarily have a lower dynamic range than RAW, but due to the total lack of image processing, RAW is guaranteed to have the best dynamic range, as you can't make any camera image control mistakes that could effect dynamic range.

Graeme
Click to expand...
That's great news Graeme. So, for shooting 2K RAW, you won't need any special monitoring solutions, but will need more storage, shoot in windowed mode, and to plan for post grading on the footage ? (due to low saturation). Damn, "best dynamic range" - Well, i'm sure 2K scaled will rock, and I want to use 35mm lenses without the focal multiplier, so 2K scaled seems the best bet.

Cheers.

PS - At least the choice is there.;) :beer: :beer: :beer:




RED # wish I was higher
 
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I don't quite see why 2K raw would be better than 4k raw ? Until we know the codec specs it is silly to make conclusions..
Aloha
-A
 
Well 4K RAW will take allot more space then 2K we don't know how much to shoot it yet. But if you have done any post and post cost comperisons from 2k to 4 or even 5K(witch is the shiz nit) takes allot more room and band width. So what people are guessing is that 2K will be the sweet spot for the money.
 
Stuart English said:
So a key advantage of RAW is the data is more compact, but RGB is much more easily understood by existing post production tools. RGB may or may not have white balance and gamma applied to it depending on whether you are using a "video" or "film" style workflow - i.e "video" = immediate editing v's "film" = maximum color processing flexibility.

In any case, if you recorded RAW - via a RED-RAID as an example - you must convert from RAW to RGB before you can edit or color correct.
Click to expand...

So from what I understand Red Codec will take care of all the RAW to RGB prossesing correct?

Or could we see native RAW editing from our NLE someday. or is that just not a possibleity due to we would have to go to RGB at the end to play or if we print to film DPX or Cineon files.
 
The workflow will take care of RAW to RGB - as to the exact details of the workflow: a) we're working on it and b) it's not just one option - there will be a few ways to work for different needs. Either way, we'll take care of it.

Graeme
 
Just wanted to clarify, given that 2K windowed is getting talked up for high frame rate shooting, my understanding has been that this will only be available in RAW mode (based on what is written at red.com).

So we are limited to 60fps, in scaled and windowed, unless we purchase a RED RAID and shoot RAW?

Correct me if I'm wrong. I would like to be.
 
Zaneisnumber1,

No I think you hit it right on..Its the extra band width that gives you the 120 frame rate in windowed
 
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120fps

120fps

Published RED specs say 120 fps 2K, 720p (note, not 1080p)

If you want to capture 120fps 2K RAW, you'd need an external RED-RAID recorder or 3rd party equivalent. In the case of 720p @ 120fps, it could be mapped to Dual Link HD-SDI (dual link 1080p is limited to 60fps) ... or REDCODE can support internal compression of 720p (up to a frame rate that generates a bit rate equal to your digital media magazine's capabilities)

Usual caveat - specs subject to change. Stay tuned.
 
I know you note that specs are subject to change, but I'm confused as to why it can theoretically do 120fps at 2K but NOT 120fps at the slightly smaller 1080p?

Again, noting the caveats, are you kind of suggesting that to get a 1080p image with 120fps you'd need to capture at the HIGHER 2K res and then crop in software later on?
 
I wouldn't expect final specs to be published until December. Until then... we are "under development" and all specs are subject to change at any moment. We guarantee that things will change from now until then.

Jim
 
Thanks Jim :) I'm really not at all worried about hard specs right now as I'm confident you and your team have got the right ethos to give us the best camera possible. Just wanted to put the question out there on the off chance someone read it and noticed a possible anomaly in the (tentative) specs.

Keep up the great work!
 
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