24p vs 30p vs 60p vs 60i

ydgmdlu said:
I can't imagine anybody disagreeing with the notion that 30p is technically superior to 24p. It seems inarguable to me. But what's important is that 24 fps is almost universally considered to be aesthetically superior to 30p for narrative/fiction/drama. ........ Do you honestly think that it's because of some blind adherence to tradition?
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First let me say that the look of manny if not most programs shot in 24p is fantastic, but as was just pointed out 30p may be technically superior, and it is my opinion that some people have been able to create very beautiful moving pictures using DSLRs recording at 30P which do not have some of the aesthetic problems which traditional 60i video manifests.

I would not suggest that no one should record in 24p, but I am suggesting it is possible to create equally fantastic (but not the same) images recording at 30p. I am less interested in creating programs that "look like film" than I am in creating programs that have a beautiful look. It has been my experience that it is much harder to create a beautiful look recording using 60i as opposed to any of the standard progressive formats 24P and 25P as well as 30P.
 
30p works fine for the Web. It works fine for 720p broadcast and BD. It works increasingly better for 60i broadcast, though support for 2-2 pulldown is not as good as one wanted it to be. I've come across multiple articles about people shooting video and even film at 30fps (yes, I do have a link). 30p is more fluid than 24p, even an amateur can shoot 30p without horrendous strobing.

I think that if one shoots for the Web, 30p is great. On the other hand, one would use 1/60 shutter anyway, so why not shooting 60p in case tastes change in favor of "live" look? For "stroby" look you would just throw out every other frame.
 
haha i know that you CAN shot on film in 30p , i just wanted to see the footage, because 30p from video cams looks cheesy and cheap looking ,it resembles my home videos shot in middle 90s with 0 budget.If someone doesnt see this then what can i say ? There is difference in smoothness of motion in 24p and 30p and more smoothness resembles interlaced cheap home video footage which says - its not professional , it looks like your home video which you could do with 0 budget.
 
Are you saying that smooth == cheap amateur crap? Sorry, I don't agree with this. I like smooth, especially for documentaries.
 
yes smooth is cheap and amateur looking interlaced like motion which i dont associate with serious filmmaking but with my own holiday vids shot in 90s.
 
bwwd said:
30p from video cams looks cheesy and cheap looking ,it resembles my home videos shot in middle 90s with 0 budget.If someone doesnt see this then what can i say ? There is difference in smoothness of motion in 24p and 30p and more smoothness resembles interlaced cheap home video footage which says - its not professional , it looks like your home video which you could do with 0 budget.
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here is a 1080p video 2/3 shot 30p the rest 24p

http://vimeo.com/7043502

this one shot with a 7d 1080 30p

http://vimeo.com/9263644

this one was shot all at 60fps

http://vimeo.com/2016472

I would not call these "cheap home video footage"
 
Yak, I told you that Vimeo does not support frame rates higher than 30fps. Your 60p example is shown as 30p, it does not matter that it has been shot at 60p.
 
Yak said:
.....I would not call these "cheap home video footage"
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I would , from the moment you see BMW moving you can clearly see that its not motion you know from movies in your TV.If you dont see the difference im not gonna argue ,stay with 30p if its superior because of numbers for you.
 
bwwd said:
I would , from the moment you see BMW moving you can clearly see that its not motion you know from movies in your TV.If you dont see the difference im not gonna argue ,stay with 30p if its superior because of numbers for you.
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Does not look cheap to me because of motion. Looks amateur because of auto exposure.

I like 30p.
 
Yak said:
First let me say that the look of manny if not most programs shot in 24p is fantastic, but as was just pointed out 30p may be technically superior, and it is my opinion that some people have been able to create very beautiful moving pictures using DSLRs recording at 30P which do not have some of the aesthetic problems which traditional 60i video manifests.

I would not suggest that no one should record in 24p, but I am suggesting it is possible to create equally fantastic (but not the same) images recording at 30p. I am less interested in creating programs that "look like film" than I am in creating programs that have a beautiful look. It has been my experience that it is much harder to create a beautiful look recording using 60i as opposed to any of the standard progressive formats 24P and 25P as well as 30P.
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So you agree that it's all subjective? Then what exactly are we arguing? There's no need to try to redefine what the "film look" means for the everyone else.
 
ydgmdlu said:
Then what exactly are we arguing?
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this Thread started with the statement

"24p is used for cinema
30p is used for home video
60p is used for sports"

I have been trying to point out that 30p is very good for broadcast not just "home video" this is not to say that 24p can not be also used for Broadcast. 24p is clearly the best of the three to shot with for Cinema.
 
Honestly i got the feeling that youre trying to say that 30p is better than 24p because 30 is larger number than 24 and have more frames ,so more frames is better and there is no question.
You had super smooth pans in camcorders from 80s with interlaced chips ,theyre superior than 24p right ?
All producers and DP's have to be insane shooting in strobey 24p when they have interlaced 50 half frames in 25 frames ? lol
 
bwwd said:
You had super smooth pans in camcorders from 80s with interlaced chips ,theyre superior than 24p right ?l
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I have never advocated for any form of interlaced recording over Progressive! I have been saying that 30P (for some not all) has advantages worth looking in to when creating programs to be Broadcast in North America, as well as the fact that 30P is not just for "home Video"

If you want a "Video Look" use a interlaced frame rate put a news light on top of your camera shoot with a large DOF......
 
Again.. read the long thread I posted on page 4.

24p looks right for narrative film making because the slower temporal resolution (frames of motions captured per second) lends a hypnotic quality to the story and helps with 'suspension of disbelief'. 30p kiiiind of does this, but the changes of motion are too fast, and that extra 6 frames every second makes things like arms waving and heads turning not get the sort of motion blur and feel that 24p does - so to me, 30p, while being better for narrative movie making than 60p (lets just totally forget about interlace for now, lets all pretend it never happened). 60p is the LIVE look, like how your eyes are seeing right now.

People get really confused... I have read through this whole thread and people keep pointing to things shot in 60p that they say look film like, but every single one of those things is playing back in slow motion, or it has been changed to 25p or 20p by vimeo or youtube.
Currently I don't think there is any video service that actually plays 60p at the true 60p rate for that LIVE look but I know it is possible and that youtube did in fact tinker with it for one of the president debates - and it definitely was 60p and looks live, like you are used to NEWS and SOAP operas looking like. 60p is HORRIBLE for narrative film making & story telling... it makes your production look like a play, a soap opera, or a bad BBC sci fi low budget sci fi show.

24p = the film look, 24 complete different pictures in one second

30p = ehhhh not sure... something like film but not really... some people like it.. I don't.. I
used it when 24p was not available, or if I screwed up when shooting with my GH1 and set the shutter to 30p by accident.

60p = LIVE such as news, soap opera, doctor who, sports games, televised meetings & debates ect.

People get very confused because of the terms 29.97 video - which is really 59.94 frames per second of motion divided on fields... it

Also we have panasonics gh1 24p being put on a 60i 1080 stream, an absolutely HORRIBLE thing they did that makes me want to kill all the engineers, but you work around it and you get the actual 24p out of it like a pain in my ass... (did I say how angry it gets me)

I supposed they were thinking that there are still so many consumers who have old TVs, we better do 60i so they can see the 24p.

NOW - an even BIGGER HORROR story:

All these new HD sets come pre installed with this 'true motion' or 'smooth motion' technology pre-installed and turned on - which does the unthinkable...

it takes true 24p films from either SD or an HD source, and makes them into 60p or faster VIDEO look.

OH BY GOOD HOLY CHRIST OF SATAN'S DEAD CHILDREN WHAT AN ABOMINATION!!!!

I couldn't believe my eyes when I popped Star Trek IV into my friends blu-ray player and proceeded to watch Star Trek IV as if it was an episode of "Doctor Who"

It looked LIVE! it looked like captain kirk moved with the cast to a low budget VIDEO series.. like when disney keeps making movies direct to video and wont give it the film budget.

What's worse, is that this feature is already ON on like 90% of the new HD TVs because some idiotic genius thinks that more frames per second = better.

He needs to be shot. I can only imagine the horror of all these film directors walking by a best buy store and seeing their masterpiece film look like it was done with the budget of Doctor Who.

And you know what - it's the SAME lighting guys, the SAME framing, SAME depth of field, and the SAME color correction, and it looks like VIDEO ****, so all you people saying that 24p is just a TINY piece of the puzzle are DEAD wrong - it is a HUGE piece of the puzzle, at least HALF or more of the puzzle.

Barry is the only person in this thread who seems to have half a clue as to what he is talking about.
 
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