24P or 24P Advance???

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oldmanhovercraft

Member
I am shooting a short documentary project soon and I am trying to decide whether I should shoot in 24P or 24P advance. I am using a DVX100 and editing in Final Cut Pro 6. My goal is to have a final cut of the film on DVD, in widescreen (shot in letterbox, then uprez to 16:9), and the in best form of 24P possible in terms of resolution/quality. My concern is compatibility (Will FCP 6 fully support 24P advance?) and knowing how to do everything right in shooting/capturing/editing so quality is not lost. I do not want any pixilation/flicker issues, or lost resolution. Is 24P more practical, or is 24Padvance possible with the equipment and software I have? Will it produce better results? Any advice? Thanks!!!
 
If you're going to edit it on a 24p timeline, shoot Advanced.

If you're going to edit it on a 60i timeline, shoot regular 24p.
 
Yes, FCP 6 will fully support 24pA. Basically, you have to capture it differently, and place it in a different timeline. It can be a pain sometimes, and if you don't know much about it, then just shoot 24p normal. If you have other footage to mix in (which in doc's you usually do), then you have to do normal 24p because 24pA you can't mix any footage shot in 60i or 30p.

If you go the 24pA route however, to capture: In the capture window on the right, go to the capture settings tab. In the second drop-down menu, select the preset labeled: DV NTSC 48kHz Advanced (2:3:3:2) Pulldown Removal. Then when you capture, at the bottom of the capture window, it should say Removing Adv Pulldown.

Then to edit, the timeline must be set to 23.98. In FCP 6, it will ask you to change the settings to match a clip if the timeline isn't already set for it. But to double check, right click the sequence in the bin, and under settings, where it says editing timebase, make sure it says 23.98 (or 23.976, whatever it is!).

With 24p normal footage, you just have to capture normally and put it in a normal timeline...
 
Thanks a lot for the help! It sounds like 24P will have to be the way to go, because I have 16mm footage to add, and may want to use other stock footage which will probably be in 60i. Is there any way to convert 60i footage to 24PA, or make it possible to add to a 24P timeline? It sounds like 24PA will look better, but it is not practical, especially for a documentary.

I am also curious about uprezzing and letterbox/16:9. Would performing squeeze using a DVX-100A produce better quality/resolution than uprezzing regular DVX-100 letterbox to 16:9. Is there any particular software that can uprez better than others? Any advice/warnings/concerns related to 16:9/letterbox/uprez?

Thanks again!
 
In the end, it would look almost identical, but its less of a pain to shoot squeeze. Also, 24p and 24pA will look the same as well so since you have other footage, then go for 24p. There is a way, which I don't know how to convert to 24p footage using compressor and cinema tools.
 
FCP has been in perfect sync with 24p Advanced, eating it for breakfast and spitting it out, for 5 years now. It's made to work perfectly with it.

Letterboxing / uprezzing to 16X9 in post leaves you more options to reframe in post. Useful for a doc.

If you want a film look and to preserve your options, shoot 24pA 4X3 and uprez to 16X9 in post.
 
andythefilmer said:
Also, 24p and 24pA will look the same as well so since you have other footage, then go for 24p. There is a way, which I don't know how to convert to 24p footage using compressor and cinema tools.
Click to expand...

24P advanced looks the same as 24P? I thought 24PA would look better, because there is less frame-blending, so it should look more crisp, etc. Also, are you saying there is a way in Compressor to convert 60i into 24PA, or something compatible with a 24P timeline?

Does 24PA look better than 24P?
 
Jack Daniel Stanley said:
FCP has been in perfect sync with 24p Advanced, eating it for breakfast and spitting it out, for 5 years now. It's made to work perfectly with it.

Letterboxing / uprezzing to 16X9 in post leaves you more options to reframe in post. Useful for a doc.

If you want a film look and to preserve your options, shoot 24pA 4X3 and uprez to 16X9 in post.
Click to expand...

So you don't think I should worry about issues relating to combining 60i footage in my 24p timeline (which is required when shot in 24PA)? Does 24PA look better? What is the advantage of shooting 24PA over 24P?

I like your advice to shoot in 4 X 3 and crop/uprez to 16:9 later. Is the cropping process easy in FCP? I used to use a Canon GL2, and they had 16:9 guides as an option when shooting 4 x 3, which I found helpful. I think if you are going to end on 16:9, it is hard to shoot accurately without letterbox or guides. When you are shooting 4 x 3, it is hard to remember not to use the entire frame. Also, composition is hard to predict. I'm not sure what the best approach is, but I definitely want the final project to be widescreen.

Thanks!
 
THIN vs. THICK!

THIN vs. THICK!

I am also shooting my project Thin rather than Thick (in the Scene settings). Is this recommended? I understand that Thin will produce a better, more detailed image, but it must be imported to FCP as THIN. Importing Thin in FCP 6 is easy, right? Once it is imported to Final Cut, is there any further optimizing or selections to make regarding that the footage was shot THIN, for instance in Compressor or when creating a DVD. Any warnings/advice relating to THIN vs. THICK?! Thanks again.
 
oldmanhovercraft said:
So you don't think I should worry about issues relating to combining 60i footage in my 24p timeline (which is required when shot in 24PA)? Does 24PA look better? What is the advantage of shooting 24PA over 24P?
Click to expand...
Why would you have a 60i timeline? Are you mixing footage?

oldmanhovercraft said:
I like your advice to shoot in 4 X 3 and crop/uprez to 16:9 later. Is the cropping process easy in FCP? I used to use a Canon GL2, and they had 16:9 guides as an option when shooting 4 x 3, which I found helpful. I think if you are going to end on 16:9, it is hard to shoot accurately without letterbox or guides. When you are shooting 4 x 3, it is hard to remember not to use the entire frame. Also, composition is hard to predict. I'm not sure what the best approach is, but I definitely want the final project to be widescreen.

Thanks!
Click to expand...
For framing, output letterboxed 16x9 to your DVX. Use that as a guide to put gaff, or scotch tape (see through) or rubber bands around the top and bottom of your LCD. Also, you can just look at the framing guides already there for title safe, etc. They may not be too far off for 16X9.

Crop / blowup in FCP is easy. Just make your timeline 16X9, drag the footage onto it. FCP will auto scale it to letterbox, so just open the Motion tab and scale it back to 100% then drag it up and down to reframe.

Or. YOu can edit on a 4X3 timeline and use the LETTERBOX filter, which will black box it to 16X9 in a 4X3 and it has a little slider in the filter which will allow you to slide it up and down. Then as a final step, make a new timeline that's 16X9 and drag the sequence icon for the original timeline into the new timeline. FCP may autosize it to fit (this time with pillarboxes, so it has black all around), so again, just open the motion tab and undo scaling or aspect ratio change as needed.
 
What if you're shooting a project in 24pA (like I always do), and begin editing on the 23.98 timeline, only in the middle realize you want some slow-mo and then have to shoot in 60i? Are you pretty much screwed then?
 
Jack Daniel Stanley said:
Why would you have a 60i timeline? Are you mixing footage?
Click to expand...

I may be mixing footage, using stock footage, 16mm transfers, etc. which will probably be 60i video. I definitely want to have the option to use B-roll footage that may not have been shot in 24PA. If 24PA looks better, and I would be able to convert the 60i stock footage to be compatible in a 24P timeline, then I would prefer to do that, assuming that 24PA looks better than 24P. Can that conversion be done?

DOES 24PA LOOK BETTER THAN 24P?!!!

Thanks again. Great advice on the 4 x 3/16:9 stuff.
 
jpastuch said:
What if you're shooting a project in 24pA (like I always do), and begin editing on the 23.98 timeline, only in the middle realize you want some slow-mo and then have to shoot in 60i? Are you pretty much screwed then?
Click to expand...


No. Because putting 60i video on a 60i timeline wouldn't give you slow mo. It would give you real time 60i.

In fact you SHOULD be on a 23.98 timeline to get slowmo from 60i.
1) Shoot 60i.
2) Conform your 60i to 24p in compressor
3) drop into your 23.98 timeline. Slo mo.
and if it's 6oi vs. 60p you'll need to deinterlace I imagine.

60i on a 60i timeline = 60 samples of motion played back at 60. Which is realtime. The whole point is you want to bring your 60 samples of motion down to 24 samples of motion per second.


oldmanhovercraft said:
Can't do slow-mo in 24P timeline?
Click to expand...

That's the best place to do slowmo because it's the slowest frame rate. So any faster frame rates you bring into it, become slower.
 
oldmanhovercraft said:
I may be mixing footage, using stock footage, 16mm transfers, etc. which will probably be 60i video. I definitely want to have the option to use B-roll footage that may not have been shot in 24PA. If 24PA looks better, and I would be able to convert the 60i stock footage to be compatible in a 24P timeline, then I would prefer to do that, assuming that 24PA looks better than 24P. Can that conversion be done?

DOES 24PA LOOK BETTER THAN 24P?!!!

Thanks again. Great advice on the 4 x 3/16:9 stuff.
Click to expand...
Well define better.
24pA looks more like film.
24p may be slightly smoother (some say) but looks slightly less like film.
It's generally thought that if you are mixing 23.98, 29.97, and 60i that you want to edit on a 29.97 timeline.

Everything will go on pretty much any timeline in FCP now though. If you drop 30fps material onto a 23.98 time line it may be stuttery. If you drop 60i material it might be slightly stuttery, but far better than 30fps dropped on to 24.
 
Jack Daniel Stanley said:
Well define better.
24pA looks more like film.
24p may be slightly smoother (some say) but looks slightly less like film.
It's generally thought that if you are mixing 23.98, 29.97, and 60i that you want to edit on a 29.97 timeline.

Everything will go on pretty much any timeline in FCP now though. If you drop 30fps material onto a 23.98 time line it may be stuttery. If you drop 60i material it might be slightly stuttery, but far better than 30fps dropped on to 24.
Click to expand...

From the DVX manual:
When editing images using the conventional 24P (2:3) conversion system, the images of different frames are expanded causing the picture quality to further deteriorate. Under 24P advance there is minimal picture quality deterioration compared with 24P mode.

It sounds to me like the frame expansion systems that 24P and 24PA use cause picture quality loss, but the 24PA system causes less quality loss because less frames are expanded. Furthermore, it seems that when you edit 24P in 60i timeline, or 60i in a 24P timeline, there must be a similar loss of quality because frames are being stretched, blended, and compressed. That is my concern, is there any way around quality loss when using both 24PA and 60i material?

Here is my main question: Is there a way to convert 60i footage in compressor to 24PA/24P-timeline-compatible?

Also, I am curious: If you drop 60i footage in a 24P timeline, will it automatically appear slightly slow-mo, or does FCP make an auto adjustment?

Also, does anyone know anything about Thin/Thick settings?

Thanks again.
 
HorseFilms said:
If you're going to edit it on a 24p timeline, shoot Advanced.

If you're going to edit it on a 60i timeline, shoot regular 24p.
Click to expand...

I read this in Barry's book. Why would one want to edit in a 60i timeline if shooting 24p??
 
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