24p in 30i project help needed

S

Sned

New member
Hello all.

I have a project that was supposedly shot at 24p, but i have digitalized it in a 30i project. (P2cam shot on tape as 480i)

When looking closely at the footage later on, i noticed that when there is fast camera movements, the image seems to move quite faster than "normal"..

I double-checked the time code and all was non-drop and there seemed to be 29 frames (00:00:00:29), not 24.. But during playback on the deck (M25U), there was a +- 1 symbol...
So i tried to digitalize it afterwards in a 24p project but was unable to because the Avid was telling me that it couldn't capture both the audio and video together because the frame rates weren't the same(?!).. I have never seen that before. Therefore i just figured i'd stay in 30i.. Plus the pulldown option was saying it was forbidden or something to that extent. Is there something specific i should be doing to be able to dig in a 24p project?

I was told that leaving my 24p footage in a 30i timeline creates duplicated fields on some camera panning, but that it is possible to fix that by messing around with frame rates and format input/outputs on the motion effects editor..

The thing i'm concerned about is losing that filmlike quality the guy who shot it at meant it to have, and now that i've brought it in a 30i project, i will effectively lose that once i output to DVD (which is what the final output is).

What would be my advantage in re-digitalizing the footage in a proper 24p project for DVD output be VERSUS staying in 30i?

Thanx so much in advance!
 
The advantage is that you'd be editing in the timebase of the footage, and that you could then make a 24p DVD. This is desirable because you'd save space on the DVD (allowing for a higher bitrate/higher quality, if you wished), and also because there would be no interlace artifacts on a progressive TV if played with a progressive-scan DVD player, or when played on a computer.

But editing as 30i (as Avid calls 60i) won't mean the end of the film look.
 
Thanx so much for taking the time to reply.

So you mean i can preserve the film-look but i will be adding interlacing, correct?

Saving space on the DVD isn't really a big issue for me as the clip is not so long. My main concern was the feel and look of the final product on the DVD.
Plus i think my client's going to be outputting this through a old-school TV set which i'm assuming isn't progressive.
I could just add a Fluid Film Progressive filter on my mixdown at the end to get rid of any interlacing i guess..

Is there anything else i should be doing in order to keep things as smooth as possible while working in this workflow?
 
You won't be "adding" interlacing; the interlacing was added by the camera when it was recorded to tape. You just won't be removing it. But it'll still have the film motion look, just like movies shown on TV do even though they've gone through the same process of having added pulldown.

Do NOT try to deinterlace it. You'll just be throwing away resolution and you'll probably make a mess of the footage.
 
Really? You mean that even when recording so-called 24p, it adds interlacing simply because it is recorded on tape? So it isn't about whether i am in a 60i or 24p project? That's odd..

Could you explain to me what the process of having added pulldown means? Do you mean that by digitalizing from tape in a 24p project the deck removes this pulldown? But if you digitalize 24p footage in 60i, it leaves the pulldown in the footage?
How can one take care of this? Am i meant to remove it if i decide to stay in 60i?
 
It's 24p footage -- 24 progressive frames per second are shot. But it has to record to a DV tape, and DV has to be 60i -- so it adds pulldown.

It's no different than transferring 24 fps film to video.

In Avid, if you capture as 24p, it removes the pulldown, yes. If you capture as 60i, it leaves it in place. If you want to edit in 60i, then leave it in place -- but don't shoot 24pA; use 24p standard.
 
But if editing in 60i creates problems when exporting by adding interlacing, as well as creating problems when adding transitions/fades and titles/graphics, what is my alternative since i've already digitalized my footage as 60i and Avid won't let me capture in a 23.98p project for some odd reason?

Can a third party software take care of my final output once done by removing pulldown?

And why do you say don't shoot 24pA, what would be the difference?
 
The best thing to do is to capture and edit as 24p. Not sure why it wouldn't let you.

You don't want to remove pulldown after you edit; you want to do it before.

If you're going to edit as 60i, you don't want to shoot 24pA because the motion will be less smooth.
 
So there's no point in removing it afterwards in any high-end product you mean? It won't solve anything at all?

Do you have any idea why i'm unable to capture via a 23.98p project? Why does it keep telling me that my audio and video are running two different frame rates? Could it be something in the settings i should be doing beforehand?

Thank for all your help by the way!
 
Sned said:
So there's no point in removing it afterwards in any high-end product you mean? It won't solve anything at all?
Click to expand...

By that point you will have already made a lot of compromises; it won't be a case of "removing pulldown" anymore so much as it'll be a reverse telecine on the footage (similar in concept, but can be very different in practice), and that'll mean a quality hit in the best of circumstances.


Do you have any idea why i'm unable to capture via a 23.98p project? Why does it keep telling me that my audio and video are running two different frame rates? Could it be something in the settings i should be doing beforehand?
Click to expand...

Not sure -- I'm not in front of Avid to check the process at the moment.
 
I ran into a similar thing as you. I think you tried uploading as "24P" and not 23.97 project. I get that error too when I tried uploading my DVX100b 24p footage to "24p"... from what I understand it is that DVX100b, or i guess any DV footage, is not actually progressive because it has interlacing / pull-down. So you would have to upload to 29.97 (30i) or 23.97 timeline. I'm not sure exactly how to work with 24p timeline, maybe someone can share because i'm interested in knowing as well :) But I would assume you have to remove the pull-down somehow for it to go into a 24 progressive timeline.

Also, Michael, as related to my PM question, can this guy just "record" the final 29.97fps project (after finished) back on to miniDV tape and then upload back onto Avid on a 23.97 or 24p timeline and then do a final output? Will that way work as a way for "frame conversion" without the side-effects on the speed/motion?

justmarvin
 
justmarvin said:
I ran into a similar thing as you. I think you tried uploading as "24P" and not 23.97 project. I get that error too when I tried uploading my DVX100b 24p footage to "24p"... from what I understand it is that DVX100b, or i guess any DV footage, is not actually progressive because it has interlacing / pull-down. So you would have to upload to 29.97 (30i) or 23.97 timeline. I'm not sure exactly how to work with 24p timeline, maybe someone can share because i'm interested in knowing as well :) But I would assume you have to remove the pull-down somehow for it to go into a 24 progressive timeline.

justmarvin
Click to expand...

24pA and 24pN are totally different workflows (sort of).

With no problem (sort of) you can edit both in a 30i timeline, and your average person wouldn't be able to tell the difference.

If you've shot 24pA the correct way to ingest is to change your "24p/Film" settings. Make sure the cadence is set to "advanced". I've made this error before.

If you've shot in 24pN you can either just ingest at 30i OR set the cadence to 24p Normal. It's totally up to you.
 
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