ingoandfloyd
Active member
Wow! 18 pages now in 2 days on this thread just because you guys in panasonic didnt gave us 25p. What do you think mr Barry that we shuld "shoot the fxxx up insteed"?
24 p what is it good for?
- Thread starter ingoandfloyd
- Start date
Barry_Green
Moderator
Well, what do you think you should do? Should you stew in anger that a product you want doesn't have a feature that you want? Will that somehow bring you happiness?
Do you think you should organize a worldwide boycott of all Panasonic products until they add this feature that you think is missing? Will that somehow bring you happiness?
Do you think you should complain and complain and complain about something that you have absolutely no control over and you cannot change? Will that somehow bring you happiness?
I have never told you to "shut the **** up". All I've asked you to do is look at the reality of the situation. The GH2 doesn't have 25p. You think you need 25p. So don't buy a GH2. Done.
Now, if you want to actually accomplish something, instead of just pointlessly complaining, then you'll have to direct your efforts towards someone who can give you what you want. Send an e-mail directly to Panasonic and say "Dear Panasonic, I really wanted to buy a GH2, but it lacks one crucial feature that I really need. Please issue a firmware update so that the GH2 can record in 1080/25p mode. If you do that, I will happily buy a GH2. If you don't do that, I have no choice but to buy a Canon 60D instead."
If enough people send that message, then maybe something will happen.
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Skeptikal
Active member
Why bother. As much as I was tempted to buy a couple of GH2's recently I decided I need 25p too much...and can live with my GH13's for a while yet. I suspect some salaryman is soon going to have some explaining to do about sales targets in PAL countries...
If the decision makers at Panasonic still don't get it about what real world customers need, it looks like someone at the competion does...based on what's coming out in the next few months from JVC and Sony.
If the decision makers at Panasonic still don't get it about what real world customers need, it looks like someone at the competion does...based on what's coming out in the next few months from JVC and Sony.
That's what we've been saying throughout the thread. There are messages companies will hear and those that they won't.
Hi Barry,
in a way you are right. Don't buy the product and don't whine. But my frustration, or shall we say astonishment, goes deeper. The GH2 is just the tip of the iceberg. Since the wide introduction of flat screen TVs the industry is pushing for 60Hz solutions in Europe. Classic monitors (tube-ones, you remember) are often enough multi-sinc. Thy show every single frame you throw at them. There is no image processing what so ever in that respect.
Now going with 60Hz (and only a few super-expensive LCD are capable of natively adopting different refresh-rates) is fine with 60p, 60i, 30i, 30p, and, with a straight forward pull-down strategy, 24p. In Europe every LCD screen and TV (with a few exception that actually run on 50Hz) has to do a lot of image processing to adapt any of the European standards (50i, 25p). Here, the image quality of TV sets has suffered a lot with the introduction of LCDs because of that. I don't mind it, what the hack.
But when working professionally with film and video one is suddenly confronted not only with gear that's less and less according to our standards (it started with monitors, now eventually the cameras) but clients that start complaining about strobing results. The issue is absolutely new. I've worked for 20 years in PAL land and never ever had to deal with these problems. It just didn't exist. And for 24f/s film there was always the speed-up, flawless.
But now we have the mess. Even when I deiced to stick to 25p/50i, my clients are seeing my work with motion-aliases on their brand new TV sets and monitors and complain. Just like a lot of the posters here that think they need a better camera or a higher frame-rate (50p, 60p, 100p, 120p). 24p doesn't help either. And 30p is not a standard here. You know, whatever you do with film, regardless of how bad the clock on the camera is, regardless of a projector running at a completely wrong frame-rate, you see one whole image after another. Video and TV used to provide the same. That's now history. And the public is celebrating this as a great step forward. Hey, my TV is not 50Hz, how lame is that, mine's 60! That's much better and cooler! And on top of that we now have to start dealing with the 24p fanboys.
So develop, promote, sell, buy and celebrate the new gear but don't believe it goes automatically in the right direction.
Cheers, g
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Hey, no argument from me, I was just prodding Mr Green for the humour.
I watched 24 frames per second movies for years and never had an issue with "choppy." 24p movies on tv - no problem. Online clips of movies - fine. There does seem to be a problem with stuttering (slow pans and motion, etc) when viewing some 24p output from our GH cameras though. Be nice to resolve that.
Fully agree on the "don't buy something that doesn't suit" point. That's why I bought a hackable GH1 instead of the GH2. 25p being just one issue. It's interesting that the GH2 is readily available in all outlets in the UK. I expect discounting to begin soon.
I don't have sympathy with the "stills camera that also does video" line, however (except on the technicality). That applies to pretty much every digicam on sale, yet only a tiny few have a forum at dvxuser. Nearly everyone here in the GH forum is interested in the these cameras primarily as video tools. That's the context of discussion, and dragging out the stills aspect when someone has a whine at some video limitation is little more than pedantry.
Having your arguments challenged and defeated in open forum is not the same as having your dissent crushed.
It's not "pedantry." It happens to be the truth of the matter.
HDSLRs are still cameras that people are pressing into use as filmmaking tools, despite the fact that they were never intended to be. We do have the forums because we expected a lot of people to try, but that still doesn't mean that's what they were intended for.
Most people have understood that and haven't spent much time complaining about their limitations vis-a-vis video production -- because they know that's not really what they're meant for, and they're happy to get what they can out of them at such a low price point.
But when someone comes along and not only demands functionality from a tool that was never supposed to have it, and then in same breath casts aspersions on the version of the thing which WAS designed SPECIFICALLY for video work, insinuating that there was some kind of plot afoot to bilk poor souls out of their money -- that's just sourpusses and trolls.
As I said, you can't take a tool which was designed to do X and then ***** and moan that it doesn't do Y and Z. If you buy a soldering iron, don't expect to be able to weld with it. You bought a soldering iron, and no one told you could fasten I-beams with it. ESPECIALLY when they also went out of their way to build a super-ized iron which CAN weld.
You get what you pay for. You also get what something is, not what you wish it was.
(Next: *$&#&!!! Why don't iPhones have HD-SDI out and jam sync?)
HDSLRs are still cameras that people are pressing into use as filmmaking tools, despite the fact that they were never intended to be. We do have the forums because we expected a lot of people to try, but that still doesn't mean that's what they were intended for.
Most people have understood that and haven't spent much time complaining about their limitations vis-a-vis video production -- because they know that's not really what they're meant for, and they're happy to get what they can out of them at such a low price point.
But when someone comes along and not only demands functionality from a tool that was never supposed to have it, and then in same breath casts aspersions on the version of the thing which WAS designed SPECIFICALLY for video work, insinuating that there was some kind of plot afoot to bilk poor souls out of their money -- that's just sourpusses and trolls.
As I said, you can't take a tool which was designed to do X and then ***** and moan that it doesn't do Y and Z. If you buy a soldering iron, don't expect to be able to weld with it. You bought a soldering iron, and no one told you could fasten I-beams with it. ESPECIALLY when they also went out of their way to build a super-ized iron which CAN weld.
You get what you pay for. You also get what something is, not what you wish it was.
(Next: *$&#&!!! Why don't iPhones have HD-SDI out and jam sync?)
Barry_Green
Moderator
I don't think it's pedantry -- it's that people are wanting to press a product into a service that it's not really designed for. Just like when we tried to make movies on the VX1000... it wasn't a filmmaking camcorder. We had to jump through hoops to try to synthesize 24fps out of 60i (and the PAL guys think they've got it bad!)
Barry_Green
Moderator
Now this is an exact comparison. The iPhone has a really pretty decent camera on it, and at least one filmmaker has put it to use to make a movie with it. But it doesn't shoot at 24p (or 25p), and it wasn't designed for that purpose. If you choose to use it anyway, you accept that you're putting it to a use for which it was not designed.
The GH2 is not a cinema camera. It's something that microcinema filmmakers are trying to adapt into cinema use, but that doesn't make it a cinema camera. It is perhaps the most suitable DSLR-type camera to adapt to the purpose, but it still isn't made for it -- it doesn't even have a headphone jack...
Ben_B
Veteran
Barry_Green
Moderator
Touche.
Rule #1 - No product is perfect. Rule #2...
Rule #1 - No product is perfect. Rule #2...
If in doubt, refer to Rule #1.
I have a GH2. I use it for photography and videos. Is it perfect? Nope! But for my needs, it's the best option available. And best includes ANY video camera available (including the AF100).
There are several things about the GH2 that I would prefer to be different - a headphone jack, better HDMI out, 1080p/60, and higher bit rate at all resolutions are at the top of my list. But I'm not going to whine about it. It is what it is.
More importantly, it won't be what it is a year from now! Technology moves on. What you think is great now will be passe in 12 months. A year from now, other companies will raise the bar with newer, better cameras. Your expectations will be higher. Which will push Panasonic to keep up or watch their sales die completely. So they will bring out new products. And the NEW products won't be perfect either!
A year from now, my skills will (or should) improve and my needs may change. A year from now, my skills may be good enough and I might shoot enough video to justify buying an AF100 or something similar. And my capture and post processing skills will be better. And my workflow should be improved. I still have much to learn and I'm not going to waste time whining about features I think I need.
Bottom line... Work with what you have. Accept its limitations. When you see something that meets your needs better, buy it, make the best of it, and don't look back. Above all, life is short; don't waste it by whining!
OK... /Soapbox = OFF.
Regards,
Dan.
Rule #1 - No product is perfect. Rule #2...
If in doubt, refer to Rule #1.
I have a GH2. I use it for photography and videos. Is it perfect? Nope! But for my needs, it's the best option available. And best includes ANY video camera available (including the AF100).
There are several things about the GH2 that I would prefer to be different - a headphone jack, better HDMI out, 1080p/60, and higher bit rate at all resolutions are at the top of my list. But I'm not going to whine about it. It is what it is.
More importantly, it won't be what it is a year from now! Technology moves on. What you think is great now will be passe in 12 months. A year from now, other companies will raise the bar with newer, better cameras. Your expectations will be higher. Which will push Panasonic to keep up or watch their sales die completely. So they will bring out new products. And the NEW products won't be perfect either!
A year from now, my skills will (or should) improve and my needs may change. A year from now, my skills may be good enough and I might shoot enough video to justify buying an AF100 or something similar. And my capture and post processing skills will be better. And my workflow should be improved. I still have much to learn and I'm not going to waste time whining about features I think I need.
Bottom line... Work with what you have. Accept its limitations. When you see something that meets your needs better, buy it, make the best of it, and don't look back. Above all, life is short; don't waste it by whining!
OK... /Soapbox = OFF.
Regards,
Dan.
come on we have every right to moan i moan about my cars faults as well is that bloody wrong as well.There is a lot of moaning about the battery[which i have no problems with]maybe people like me should have realised pal 24P is crap but never having used it is my excuse.I spent the last hour reading this entire thread and I have to admit it was very entertaining.
To the OP... move on to a "real" camera or just buy a film camera and shoot film. You'll probably be happier. As for me and my house, we shall use a GH-2.
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LCD pixels are controlled independently at any given time. Frames are not refreshed just single pixels are updated. I actually bet the LCD screens are outsourced to a larger LCD maker. if anything the chipsets controlling the screens might be enhanced a bit. Why are you guys even using LCDs and not Laservues or DLPs. Most theaters (In my area anyway) run DLP projectors, so go buy a DLP TV to get a similar effect as in a theater. Mistu DLPs can do 24 FPS and its actually full screen refreshes.
roei z
Veteran
actually I do have a projector that run my 24p Mts files smoothly
my problem is when I review and edit on my pc.
the jitter difference is huge on LCD, so I need to
Resolve this somehow.
Well, not really. Moaning becomes Pi$$ing in the Pool, and that's the 8th P specifically prohibited by our posting guideliness.
Except it isn't. You may not like it, or it may not suit your particular needs, but that doesn't make it crap.
Pal 24 letter after o is in the video world i cant comment regarding film,i have been trying to work out the difference in 720 resolution it does not show up as a great amount and i have to concentrate on my large sceen tv to see the difference in identical frames with lots of detail.
GavilanDelBosque
Member
Well, I didn't read pages 14-20, but I need to go to bed. I'll throw this out and shutdown.
I had a little conversation over at EOSHD the other day related to this, and again I see what
appears to me as a glaring oversite among everybody in this thread. So, at the risk of being
wrong (but I truly doubt it), I'll just say what I take to be an obvious thing: The broadcast TV
industry will be dead in 20 years like film is dead now. Panasonic would have left out the 24p
too if it weren't for the nostalgic hearts of industry old timers. TVs and computers will be the
same physical thing in 10 years. People will do their own weekly programming by selecting what programs
to download and cache (bought/rented/free-commercialed). Everybody will be making content and big
industry won't be so big.
It's a huge huge huge mistake to say that the GH1/GH2 is just a still camera with video capacity.
Nikon, Canon and Olympus make still cameras with video capacity. And the Micro 4/3rds lens mount
is another mostly independant revolution, but synergistic. These cameras and the internet are death to
the traditional broadcasting system (and Sony), and it appears that they don't see it coming. I think
Panasonic just didn't want to waste anymore time with annoying inconsistencies, and might have
thought that just such subtle pressure on europe could help accelerate the transition, due to the
europeans predeliction to buy efficient technology/trends faster (and at disproportionately higher
prices) than americans.
I had a little conversation over at EOSHD the other day related to this, and again I see what
appears to me as a glaring oversite among everybody in this thread. So, at the risk of being
wrong (but I truly doubt it), I'll just say what I take to be an obvious thing: The broadcast TV
industry will be dead in 20 years like film is dead now. Panasonic would have left out the 24p
too if it weren't for the nostalgic hearts of industry old timers. TVs and computers will be the
same physical thing in 10 years. People will do their own weekly programming by selecting what programs
to download and cache (bought/rented/free-commercialed). Everybody will be making content and big
industry won't be so big.
It's a huge huge huge mistake to say that the GH1/GH2 is just a still camera with video capacity.
Nikon, Canon and Olympus make still cameras with video capacity. And the Micro 4/3rds lens mount
is another mostly independant revolution, but synergistic. These cameras and the internet are death to
the traditional broadcasting system (and Sony), and it appears that they don't see it coming. I think
Panasonic just didn't want to waste anymore time with annoying inconsistencies, and might have
thought that just such subtle pressure on europe could help accelerate the transition, due to the
europeans predeliction to buy efficient technology/trends faster (and at disproportionately higher
prices) than americans.