24 p what is it good for?

Skeptikal said:
I don't agree. There's more going on than "just one extra frame" and it is visually noticeable on playback.
Click to expand...

Math is math. The motion characteristics of both are nearly identical.


Besides, shooting and editing 24p in PAL land for broadcast is simply a PITA. I've got nothing against 24p for those who need it...but leaving 25p off a camera for PAL users is just plain stupid.
Click to expand...

That's a different issue. And besides, as has been mentioned a few times now, no one intended a still camera which shoots video to be used for broadcast acquisition. It's simply not the right tool for you, if that's what you want to do with it.
 
alignment1 said:
To properly monitor your footage you should be using a kona card or a blackmagic decklink with a broadcast monitor such as this:
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produ...H1760PJ_BT_LH1760W_17_Widescreen_HD_S D.html

..but this doesn't help the budget I'm sure.

And the gun thing from yellow GTO was just ...weird...
Click to expand...

roei z is from israel, the gun is from israel. And I thought everyone in israel had to be in the military so i thought he would like the photo.

And hz speed doesn't matter on an LCD. each pixel is controlled if 1 pixel is lit the same color for X amount of frams it wont flash it will just stay lit. Unlike a CRT where the screen is redrawn.

Here ya go this is was hz on an LCD do not matter.


When you watch the LCD is slow motion you will see the image stays static and only the green thing flashs.
 
Last edited:
YellowGT0 said:
roei z is from israel, the gun is from israel. And I thought everyone in israel had to be in the military so i thought he would like the photo.

And hz speed doesn't matter on an LCD. each pixel is controlled if 1 pixel is lit the same color for X amount of frams it wont flash it will just stay lit. Unlike a CRT where the screen is redrawn.
Click to expand...

ahh -I see.

in terms of CRT, what relevance does a CRT have in today's market? I understand what you're saying- but motion capture is motion capture. If someone plays for me a 29.97 clip vs. 23.98 clip- I can tell you the difference straight away, I don't need a CRT to tell me that.

cheers

z
 
David Jimerson said:
Math is math. The motion characteristics of both are nearly identical.




That's a different issue. And besides, as has been mentioned a few times now, no one intended a still camera which shoots video to be used for broadcast acquisition. It's simply not the right tool for you, if that's what you want to do with it.
Click to expand...

All i hear of is broadcast programns being shot on canons so GH2s are inferior,personaly i get as good and even better video than the hd channels put out at times but i would still love 25P.
 
All pixel speeds are not the same either. Red blue and green have slightly different refresh rates and also intrestinly enough life of the colors and different some will fade faster then others. So if that chips was red green and blue you would see each one light up at a different times.

And here is why CRT screens need to match refresh rate.
 
on the 24p topic, you're saying the LCD Hrz don't matter and 24p (23.976) "normal" stutter won't be exaggerated on 60Hrz pulldown ? i don't get it.
 
When you break it down LCDs aren't mesured in hz they only reason they put it on the box is for marketing. Its mesured in lag. For topic convenience lets say you had 0 ms lag time on an LCD (I don't think a 0ms LCD exists) The pixels that needed to be drawn would be drawn (lit up) instantly. Because each pixel is independent if you load up a two videos one at 24fps one at 60 fps on one monitor they will both be playing a near the correct frame rate at the same time. So when a device to draw pixel X you get pixel X + the amount of time it takes for the TV/Monitor to draw it.

On CRT/Plasma each line is drawn at a constant time. on LCD each dot is drawn when needed be it 2ms or 20 minutes.

Its hard for me to explain its like trying to compair prop planes and jet planes. They just work different.
 
Last edited:
ok, so why do they make this? :

Flawless 1080/24p HD Playback

To enjoy video playback as smooth as you would see in a cinema or gaming arcade, the FX2431’s dual HDMI inputs support a video signal display rate of 1080/24p frames-per-second (48Hz). This support eliminates motion artifacts known as judder in fast-paced gaming or movie scenes with panning or scrolling movements.
 
LCD doesn't work that way. You are thinking that a frame changes completely. IE if frame 1, 2 and 3 had 0 movement then on the display scale it would they would all be 1. That scale would be perfect for a CRT/Plasma.

And LCD doesn't care about film speeds it just lights pixels to what the picture is supposed to be like. Imagine a board with 50 lights in a square. on a CRT tv each line would light up then turn off fast so fast to your eyes it would seem that all 5 lines were lit up. So the full screen would keep flashing would would want your video to match the flashing lights so you get a smooth frame. And LCD would be imagine all the light constantly on and when it wants to show motion it only flashes the bulbs that are moving.

When they say Hz for a LCD its really a FPS. So if you watch a video at 120FPS LCD the tv is adding extra frames with blur to trick you into smoother motion.

Now this is my take on it. Remeber I have tech degree i'm not cinematographer. But from my view I think whats going on with jitter is newer TVs LCD/Plasma ect ect the image is much more fine. Like if you use a Flashlight how it has soft edges around the main beam of light and a laser doesn't. So CRTs pixels actually give off light and it sorta bleeds out to the edges giving slight blur. newer TVs are more like lasers with very fine even light. So in order to get smooth motion you need to either A increase frame rate or B blur the frames.

Blur artificially gives the illusion of smoothness. You can see this in some games. Because in game each frame is drawn perfectly 24P would be almost unplayable. So some games add bluring to the frames to give it a smoother playback for slower machines.

Sorry is the grammer and sentence structure is all over the place, I keep reediting to try and be more clear.

It would be really intresting to take one of these raw videos and see if the stutter in these cams if the frame its stuttering on is super clear like a photo.
 
Last edited:
so you're saying that: a good 2ms monitor with 60 Hrz will show me the same 24p playback
as this Eizo Forris 1500$ special 24p playback monitor ?
 
Nope, i'm saying a 2ms CRT will display images just as fast as another 2ms display. But all displays are not equal. There is the color reproduction, and other factors. What your seeing it higher dollar monitors is other magic not hz. Some cheaper displays have a tearing effect where some of the pixels are faster then the others so it gives you lets say 2ms on the top of the display and 2.1ms on the bottom. Then there is also brandname markup. But a good middle ground would be a Samsung display. a lot, A LOT of displays are rebadged Samsung displays.

You can see here where much cheaper displays beat out that 1500 dollar display.

http://www.bit-tech.net/hardware/2009/09/19/eizo-foris-fx2431-24in-tft-monitor-review/2 <If thats the model you were refering to. Not many companies produce LCD screen. They are out sourced from major compaines. IE Panasonic, LG, Samsung.
 
Last edited:
ok... but in terms of their 48Hrz declaration of producing clean 24p playback.. this isn't a big factor by your understanding..
 
For a DLP, plasma,CRT yes it would matter. The LCD isn't limited in time to display X picture at X time. It just displays what changes when it changes. I have a 1080p DLP that does 24FPS. and the only thing it changes when I turn it on is my mouse gets choppy. The video is nearly identical. If you lived closer I would line up my Samsung monitor with the display and play a video clip mirrored. The colors are a little diff but the motion is so damn close its not worth it for me to waste the time to go in the menu and chage the display settings.
 
Rocky said:
I don't need 25p, since i'm not in a PAL land.. who cares about 25p in here , If your in a PAL land, don't buy GH2,
Buy 5Dmk2, 60d, etc.. and shoot 25p with peace in your mind...
Click to expand...

But what of the PAL LAND guys who invested in the M4/3 lenses and want to "upgrade" to GH2? Maybe they dont want to go with a Canon with its alaising and chunky clunky camera gear. Maybe NTSC land and 24peepers would just want the world in a big split? lol
_______________________________________________

As for difference with 24p and 25p there is a visable difference to me...in that being 24p looks like 25p but with a lower shutter speed (25p with say 1/30) giving a blur or strobe when moving with 25p I get a consistant image. This is a personal choice of course. I also have nothing against those using 24p...I just dont like it myself.
It is annoying however when those 24p lovers make out that anything else is not a broadcast "standard"....ALL of the available frame rates are for different tasks and different frequencies.

As a Pal lander who has no interest in 24p...makes me keep my GH1.
Am I a GH2 hater? No. Panasonic loses out not me (I sent my GH2 back)...and its frustrating when there is a upgrade but the upgrade does not deliver a very simple option that you had access to before.

But I will point out something...there was no 25p native on GH1 either...til the hack arrived. So if Panny dont change this and get themselves the 25p wanting punters...maybe a unwanted (for panny) hack will!

Saying that...there were so many folks who stick by 24p that they wanted it native for GH1 that they got what they wanted in GH2 with a boosted bitrate on top. GH1 owners who use 25p with their hacked GH1s hoped they would be given the same option to one day upgrade...and are dissapointed it wasnt. Nothing wrong in that.

If the GH2 was released without 24p native...Im sure many members here would be posting lenghly threads about it...bloom would not of hyped about it...the reid guy would moan and write bulls**t speculation about it...etc etc
 
Last edited:
mimirsan it would be interesting to see a 1/50 24p sample vs 1/50 25p with this difference your seeing
 
They make movies in Pal land? Just kidding I think its crappy they don't give you 25p. But either you're going to have to band togethers and yell at panasonic for a FW update or donate/wait on the hacked FW. I pretty much think everyone here agrees there should be 25p but there nothing we can do about it.
 
David Jimerson said:
1/50 was the closest shutter speed to 1/48 on the original DVX100. 24p shooters found it just fine.
Click to expand...

huh, it might be the exact 0.2 shutter speed that makes the 24p footage a bit strobier that 1/48, while being pefect on 25p..
maybe providing a 1/48 for the GH2 would solve this without the need of 25p (at least for me)
 
There's only a very, very tiny difference. Keep in mind, of course, that "perfect" is entirely subjective, because it all depends on your desired look.

Undesired strobe in a slower frame rate like 24 or 25 fps almost always comes from camera handling.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top