Also dvd films here in pal land if made with 24p look nothing like what i get from my GH2 which on my 50" pioneer and 42" viera panasonic look crap ,nothing like the great 25P i used to get ,never having used 24P i never new what to expect, i still greatly like what i get from 1080i but feal i am missing something, regarding sport this i one type of filming that looks better filmed interlaced than even 25P IMO let alone 24P.
24 p what is it good for?
- Thread starter ingoandfloyd
- Start date
roei z
Veteran
ok, but i'm talking about a computer monitor. what to do?
(BTW- about the 24p-25p switching- i talked to a serious guy he told me you take the final 24p cut and by using After Effects you need to telecine for 25p - they do it all the time
and it's great)
The biggest reason why 25p is must in most of the world is because the electric current is 50Hz and you have to shoot in 25p to be able to use shutter speeds freely, otherwise you get flickering.
My last rant kinda pointed at Barry Green.
24p being used as a standard for dvds- Why is it then all my uk dvd collection are authored 25fps (pal standard)
Im under the impression that indeed 24p is the standard for US dvds.
Check runtime differences between UK/US dvds (not becuase of censor cuts but becuase of framerate differences).
Us PAL users use 50p/50i 25p as a standard for dvds/broadast....not one of my uk dvds vob files are 24p.
Our dear american cousins have got to realise there are other countries that use non 60p/60i 24p standard and so should panasonic lol
The arguement about it being a still camera with video second (rather than a serious filmaking tool in comparison to af100 say) is a little redundant as the GH1 already has 25p as does canons and many cheapo point and shoot cameras (stills cameras with videos as afterthought).
Panny implimented 24p to peander to the indie filmaker wanting that "film" look disgruntled about pulldown...does not seem like panny aiming at a "general" camera buyer wanting to shoot some video on the side to me.
If they want the gh2 to be as good as it can be then they should have all the framerates available for all countries. Why having one and not the other is a wierd move by them.
But then GH2 is not a general consumer camera.
Heres a example of a uk general consumer...
Mr pal public buys a nice new UK gh2 to shoot his kiddies sports day. He wants to shoot in the "best" format so he goes for 24p cinema mode (because even to simple folks high bitrates better video right?).
He has a modest pc basic editing tools maybe a automatic dvd authoring software...hes just a general guy who just wants to shoot home vids and put them on dvd.
He does a edit maybe using (shock!) windows movie maker or powerdirector (high street shop editing software...you get the idea) then clicks to author on dvd..."umm which one to choose?" there will be TWO framerate options presented to him for dvd...pal 25fps...ntsc 29.97... NO 24P) "Ahh thats right im in the uk I use pal!"
Mr pal public consumer wont be happy when after shooting his kiddies sports day with the gh2 in its "best" video mode when he sits down and watches his finished authored dvd jump frames in front of him becuase his dvd's authored to 25p ;-)
"This cameras rubbish im going to send this back to go buy a canon!"
Now recreate the above with ntsc 24p to 29.97 ...imagine the horror!
When I worked in a "big name" uk camera shop for a while theres a canon point and shoot that only did 24p (s90?) and Ive seen quite a few costumer returning stating they bring it back because it produced "jumpy videos"
One could say they should research or theyre idiots.
Some costumers wont know about 24p or how to edit with it...some wont even have the interest and just want to shoot with the "best" setting on the camera.
Not everyone works in the industry.
This is why a universal standard is a good idea...saves all the hubub!
I sent a email to panasonic UK linking this thread.
24p being used as a standard for dvds- Why is it then all my uk dvd collection are authored 25fps (pal standard)
Im under the impression that indeed 24p is the standard for US dvds.
Check runtime differences between UK/US dvds (not becuase of censor cuts but becuase of framerate differences).
Us PAL users use 50p/50i 25p as a standard for dvds/broadast....not one of my uk dvds vob files are 24p.
Our dear american cousins have got to realise there are other countries that use non 60p/60i 24p standard and so should panasonic lol
The arguement about it being a still camera with video second (rather than a serious filmaking tool in comparison to af100 say) is a little redundant as the GH1 already has 25p as does canons and many cheapo point and shoot cameras (stills cameras with videos as afterthought).
Panny implimented 24p to peander to the indie filmaker wanting that "film" look disgruntled about pulldown...does not seem like panny aiming at a "general" camera buyer wanting to shoot some video on the side to me.
If they want the gh2 to be as good as it can be then they should have all the framerates available for all countries. Why having one and not the other is a wierd move by them.
But then GH2 is not a general consumer camera.
Heres a example of a uk general consumer...
Mr pal public buys a nice new UK gh2 to shoot his kiddies sports day. He wants to shoot in the "best" format so he goes for 24p cinema mode (because even to simple folks high bitrates better video right?).
He has a modest pc basic editing tools maybe a automatic dvd authoring software...hes just a general guy who just wants to shoot home vids and put them on dvd.
He does a edit maybe using (shock!) windows movie maker or powerdirector (high street shop editing software...you get the idea) then clicks to author on dvd..."umm which one to choose?" there will be TWO framerate options presented to him for dvd...pal 25fps...ntsc 29.97... NO 24P) "Ahh thats right im in the uk I use pal!"
Mr pal public consumer wont be happy when after shooting his kiddies sports day with the gh2 in its "best" video mode when he sits down and watches his finished authored dvd jump frames in front of him becuase his dvd's authored to 25p ;-)
"This cameras rubbish im going to send this back to go buy a canon!"
Now recreate the above with ntsc 24p to 29.97 ...imagine the horror!
When I worked in a "big name" uk camera shop for a while theres a canon point and shoot that only did 24p (s90?) and Ive seen quite a few costumer returning stating they bring it back because it produced "jumpy videos"
One could say they should research or theyre idiots.
Some costumers wont know about 24p or how to edit with it...some wont even have the interest and just want to shoot with the "best" setting on the camera.
Not everyone works in the industry.
This is why a universal standard is a good idea...saves all the hubub!
I sent a email to panasonic UK linking this thread.
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After following this discussion years over years, I still not yet found out, why a lot of people are so enthusiastic about 24p. Apart from the fact, that here in PAL country its only connected with troubles, you can hardly reach pleasant movements and you are determined in a narrow way.
Modern creations in the digital world requires different possibilities.
I would like to be my own master, and thats why I would decide by myself what shutter speed etc I will use. For me its ridiculous to copy the „filmlook“. I you want it, need it - take a film cam. This little dslr cams are offering phantastic possibilities, and the day will come, where I have the free choice over a range of framerates, still in this pricerange.
Btw 25p is not better, but it would be nice (bitterly necessary) to have on a GH2 – it would save me a lot of anger.
Benn
Modern creations in the digital world requires different possibilities.
I would like to be my own master, and thats why I would decide by myself what shutter speed etc I will use. For me its ridiculous to copy the „filmlook“. I you want it, need it - take a film cam. This little dslr cams are offering phantastic possibilities, and the day will come, where I have the free choice over a range of framerates, still in this pricerange.
Btw 25p is not better, but it would be nice (bitterly necessary) to have on a GH2 – it would save me a lot of anger.
Benn
ingoandfloyd
Active member
I sent a email to panasonic UK linking this thread. GOOD!!!!!!!!!
stonebat
Veteran
I don't know if there's such consumer computer monitor supporting 23.976Hz output. There are consumer HDTVs outputting at 23.976Hz. But this is no mean feat. Your computer's video card must output at 23.976 Hz. It depends on OS, driver version, video card model.
Filmed in 24p (mts) -> transcoded in 24p (mp4) -> computer outputting in 23.976Hz -> HDTV outputting in 23.976Hz. Seems easy... but not really.
I really don't get it when some people say 24p is outdated film stuff. It is not. Increasing bitrate on 24p gives better picture quality. Some of us prolly had a bad 24p experience from wrong setup. Don't let a bad apple spoil the whole crop. I do want 1080p60, though. Just to conform to 24p to make nice slow motion.
Is 24p future proof? What if there will be no HDTV outputting at 23.976Hz? That... I wouldn't worry about it.
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stonebat
Veteran
I'm sure there must be computer monitor doing that... but prolly not at consumer monitor price.
Well... your eyes can check it if u have a 24p monitor. Lately apple tv 2 owners ran into the issue, and apple resolved by updating a driver. I guess the difference was noticeable as it calmed down the owners.
Well... your eyes can check it if u have a 24p monitor. Lately apple tv 2 owners ran into the issue, and apple resolved by updating a driver. I guess the difference was noticeable as it calmed down the owners.
No one is failing to "realize" anything, and I really never have understood the sense of entitlement people have toward certain things. I get disappointment that a product you otherwise like doesn't have something which would make it that much better, but I don't get the expectation that you're owed that thing on that product -- especially when that product was never intended to be what you want it to be.
Look, no company owes you anything they didn't specifically tell you they were going to give you. If the product doesn't give you what you want, buy someone else's which does. If people don't buy their product but they buy someone else's, then the first company has a choice -- offer what the other company does, or forget that market.
The simplest thing to do is vote with your pocketbook. That's the loudest message any company will get. But buying a product and demanding that it be something that it's not is entirely backwards. No one said you have to like it, but buying it anyway tells them they don't have to adapt, because they got your money.
Barry_Green
Moderator
Because every once in a while I forget that there's another half of the world. :thumbsup:
But we've sold DVDs worldwide, all authored in 24p, and never once have I heard that they didn't work. So PAL DVD players were designed from the beginning to support 24p playback.
Okay, so here's where you have to understand something -- the GH1 had 25p because that's ALL it had. Not because Panasonic thought "hey, here's this great feature, we can make a filmmaker's camera!" No, it's because at 1080 resolution, it simply couldn't do any faster. We got 24p over here, and you got 25p over there, because that's all it was capable of. When they went to the GH2, it was now capable of the video standard of 50i/60i, so that's what they made. In Panasonic's opinion, it's BETTER now. And if you ask 95% of their target market, they'd tell you that the "smooth" 1080/50i is superior to the "choppy" 1080/25p. And that is who this camera was marketed to.
So why does it have 24p at all? Honestly I don't know. I think the American marketing team must have pushed long and hard for that. I wouldn't be surprised at all if WikiLeaks were to leak some initial design memos that showed that the original concept for the GH2 didn't even have 24p at all, because that seems like the type of thing that the consumer company would do. Fortunately for the aspiring microcinema filmmaker, it did get 24p, and it even got a better 24p mode than it had before.
I totally agree. It is nearly incomprehensible why it doesn't have 25p. But from what I understand, they don't see it as an omission or a step backwards, they see it as a step forwards because it offers 50i instead.
Really? You think the average customer even knows about, or cares about, bitrates? I think the average "Mr. Pal Public" is going to take one look at the stuttery 24p, and then try the regular "50i", and say "oh, right, this is the good stuff."
Exaclty -- but I would bet (heavily) that had nothing to do with 24p to 25p, it instead had to do with the strobing of 24p. And the same strobing exists in 25p. General customers don't want that. They want the silky smooth look of 50p or 50i.
Agreed, which is why I halfway wish that HDTV could have been 55hz; apparently the EBU is pushing for (or at least investigating the practicality of) making 300Hz be the universal standard for next-generation TV, so that we can finally have one global unified worldwide standard, and all the old 24p/25p/50i/60i stuff could be shown natively without need for conversion.
I hope they see it and participate here with us. I think the omission of 25p is just plain silly and shortsighted on their part. Let's hope that they decide against doing such a thing in future models.
Barry_Green
Moderator
Even Sony eventually got that message. They resisted for a long, long time, against putting 24p in their prosumer line. Panasonic ate their lunch. After hemmorhaging market share, Sony finally came up with a real 24p in the V1U, and since then, they've been building up their share again.
Buy the product that does what you want. Don't buy the product that doesn't do what you want. That's the only message these companies will see and respond to.
+1,000,000,000.
Whining will accomplish NOTHING. Refusing to buy something that doesn't do what you want -- now THAT will accomplish something.
If you buy something that doesn't do what you want, and then complain about it, you accomplish nothing whatsoever. You reward the company that didn't give you what you wanted in the first place -- by giving them money. And you are now not able to do what you needed in the first place.
There will be no firmware updates. There will be no changes. If there are changes, they will be in a new model, not in the one you already bought. So if you buy something that doesn't do what you need -- YOU LOSE. The company wins, because they got your money, and YOU lose.
So don't do that.
Buy something that does what you want. And only buy it if it does what you want. And if it doesn't do what you want -- DON'T BUY IT. And then, tell the company why you're not buying it. Tell them that if it offered 25p, you would buy it, but because it doesn't offer 25p, you're not buying it. That's the only message they'll hear.
I wouldn't go by what any particular media encoder does.
Besides, you're describing the difference between B flat and A sharp.
Would you have a link to any definitive documentation on the MPEG-2 format that is encoded on DVD's? I found the official DVD industry sources to be lacking in clarity and detail. The general consensus I found among knowledgeable forum posters around the net was consistent with the encoding parameters that MainConcept implements in its Broadcast Codec Suite 5.1. If you have a better source of information I'd be most interested in studying it!
The reason is you have to sign a NDA when you buy the $5K spec book
Well, I can show what comes off my own commercially-produced DVDs, as doing so will not (for me) run afoul of any copyright violation. I can't, however, do it at this exact moment. 
In any case, as I said -- if what you descibe, the "48i," is exactly what happens, it's functionally identical to straight 24p, which is why it's the difference between B flat (a standard note) and A sharp (an identical, non-standard note). What it defintely is NOT is extracting 24p from a 60i stream.
In any case, as I said -- if what you descibe, the "48i," is exactly what happens, it's functionally identical to straight 24p, which is why it's the difference between B flat (a standard note) and A sharp (an identical, non-standard note). What it defintely is NOT is extracting 24p from a 60i stream.
stonebat
Veteran
Is that because Panasonic has HDTV supporting 24p true cinema but not 25p true cinema?
Then why isn't there HDTV with 25p true cinema? Wouldn't doubling the frames on 25p signal be good enough on 50Hz HDTV?
Barry_Green
Moderator
I guess that's possible. I didn't know there wasn't a "25p true cinema". But if you want to know what the consumer division will support, look at their television sets. The cameras use AVCHD largely because their TV sets can play it and their blu-ray players can play it.
Playing the same frame twice would be identical, visually, to true 25p.