1DC: 1DC or BMPC

[AndreeOnline]

Hi Andree,

Anyway, this was about 1DC vs BMC4K, and I stated my opinion.

Hi there,

Unfortunately, your writing style with broad dismissive statements written "as fact" raises warning flags for me that prevents me from taking further part in this discussion.

It would help tremendously if you could somehow wrap subjective statements as such. On this forum people share both fact and opinion and it helps knowing what is what. For instance, reading your initial posts one might think that the 1Dc doesn't shoot 1080p60, when it does. Had you clarified your point of view like in your last post from the beginning, it could have helped avoid some confusion.

Price is what it is. A hindrance for some and a feature for others. It helps prevent market saturation—for good or bad. I've heard professional canonistas (on the stills side) say repeatedly that they wish the pro bodies stay expensive so that not every enthusiast can offer services with the same equipment.

 

[lightstrum]

Hi Andree,

Anyway, this was about 1DC vs BMC4K, and I stated my opinion.

"BTW I don't care about 4K".

That is pretty dismissive. Time to end this thread.

 

[jindrich]

Sorry for not have been that precise, might have thought some facts were known and not worth a line. regarding the 1DC:

-Does the 1DC do 60p or FF HD video? Yes, in the same fashion and (low res) quality as the 1DX, therefore no point in spending twice to get exactly the same (mediocre) result.
-In s35 (crop) mode it does HD 4:2:0 IPB/ALL-I H.264, same as the C100 which costs less than half the 1DC
-The 4k mode is great, but uses a very old and inefficient 8bit codec, which hinders grading at such UHD resolution (but grades perfectly at HD due to pixel binning, reason I'd guess it got Tier 1?)
etc, etc.

As I mentioned, I wanted to get one 1DC for myself as a travel camera, expecting it would fulfill several roles in a single, small and very rugged package, but after trying it out (I'm a CPS) I found out Canon left many things out, unfortunately.

Therefore, for the asking price and for the savvy freelancer, I think the 5D3+C100+ninja+BMC4K+Resolve is a wiser investment, will cover more scenarios and will have a better residual value/longer lifespan. Unless, as stated, having a single camera (and no backup?) to rule it all is a prerequisite.
As for high prices setting entry barriers that keep amateurs from the pros, it's at the Post side where things have changed the most. A digi/Beta ENG cam was 40k, now you can get this kind of performance for around 10k. But the digiBeta edit suite cost a quarter of a million, and now you get a infinitely better solution with a MBP+FCP for peanuts.


Anyway, cameras are just damn tools, what matters is the content and the money one can make out of such tools. I'm not married to any brand and prefer to rent everything. Be it a 100KVA genny, a light truck full of ARRI M90s or a Camera.


"I don't care for 4K" and neither does any Producer I've EVER met anywhere throughout the EU.
HDTV broadcast debuted worldwide at the 1990's Italian World Cup, using the extremely costly and now defunct Sony HDVS platform. I was there.
24 years later, 50% of EU Broadcasters are still broadcasting in SD and the majority of HD is 720p. Hollywood is also 2K.
4K is at least a decade away and a standard 4K system doesn't even exist. It's all marketing spell for now (adressed to consumers)

 

[Guest]

Sorry for not have been that precise, might have thought some facts were known and not worth a line. regarding the 1DC:

-Does the 1DC do 60p or FF HD video? Yes, in the same fashion and (low res) quality as the 1DX, therefore no point in spending twice to get exactly the same (mediocre) result.
-In s35 (crop) mode it does HD 4:2:0 IPB/ALL-I H.264, same as the C100 which costs less than half the 1DC
-The 4k mode is great, but uses a very old and inefficient 8bit codec, which hinders grading at such UHD resolution (but grades perfectly at HD due to pixel binning, reason I'd guess it got Tier 1?)
etc, etc.

As I mentioned, I wanted to get one 1DC for myself as a travel camera, expecting it would fulfill several roles in a single, small and very rugged package, but after trying it out (I'm a CPS) I found out Canon left many things out, unfortunately.

Therefore, for the asking price and for the savvy freelancer, I think the 5D3+C100+ninja+BMC4K+Resolve is a wiser investment, will cover more scenarios and will have a better residual value/longer lifespan. Unless, as stated, having a single camera (and no backup?) to rule it all is a prerequisite.
As for high prices setting entry barriers that keep amateurs from the pros, it's at the Post side where things have changed the most. A digi/Beta ENG cam was 40k, now you can get this kind of performance for around 10k. But the digiBeta edit suite cost a quarter of a million, and now you get a infinitely better solution with a MBP+FCP for peanuts.


Anyway, cameras are just damn tools, what matters is the content and the money one can make out of such tools. I'm not married to any brand and prefer to rent everything. Be it a 100KVA genny, a light truck full of ARRI M90s or a Camera.


"I don't care for 4K" and neither does any Producer I've EVER met anywhere throughout the EU.
HDTV broadcast debuted worldwide at the 1990's Italian World Cup, using the extremely costly and now defunct Sony HDVS platform. I was there.
24 years later, 50% of EU Broadcasters are still broadcasting in SD and the majority of HD is 720p. Hollywood is also 2K.
4K is at least a decade away and a standard 4K system doesn't even exist. It's all marketing spell for now (adressed to consumers)

...and.... maybe the bmc will blow up? idk, probably not.

 

[indiawilds]

Canon current C-series don't cut it for commercials or drama, unfortunately, due to their limited DR and nasty highlight clipping.

There is a difference between a geek and a DoP. If a DoP can't make these cameras work, then fire him/her.

In my opinion, if a Palme d'Or winner can be shot with a C300 and if I can't make that camera work for me, then I know where the problem lies.

 

[jindrich]

Nothing to do with the DP, but rather with the C-series 'limited' DR and the way highlights clip, which give the footage this video look that screams "soup opera", which is ok for some documentaries but inappropriate for many projects, as commercials or tv drama, as the video look "cheapens" the product. It was the same with the much more expensive Viper or with the F35.

The BMC looks completely different and that's why it's being used along the Alexa, irregardless of price. Camera rentals typically are around 1-2% of the project's budget for commercials or drama, a drop in the budget's ocean.

As for reality TV and such, for which 50Mbps and 422 is perfect and video look is expected, the problem lies with the lack of proper lenses+big sensor, which throws focus all over the place and operators and directors (and editors!) prefer the traditional 2/3" ENG/EFP cams as the F800s. Never seen (in the EU) a prime time show, whatever its nature, shot on C-series.

 

[AndreeOnline]

Guys… I think we're done feeding it, right?

 

[Guest]

(EDIT: sorry, I got long winded. Today is my day off, and I just wanted to do this all in one go)



Let's list all of the digital cameras that are definitively better than a Canon 1DC.

Arri Alexa/Amira
Epic Dragon
Scarlet MX
F65
F55/F5
Genesis (F35)
F3 (though, when comparing other features and 4K, it is hard to choose between these two cameras at times. becomes situational. 1080 production, the sony wins hands down. Canon everything else.)
C500

That's not a lot of cameras, and most of those cost more. And all of them cost more brand new.



Now let's see cameras that share the space with 1DC, for one reason, or another:

FS700 (slowmoooooo!!!!!, but 4k brings the price up a bit, and adds bulk and frankenrigging, has DR - but oddly looks video throughout)
Canon C300/C100 (built in ND and less rolling shutter, exposure tools)
BMC 2.5k (crop sensor, not for lowlight, built in battery creates an explosive threat similiar to laptops and cellphones?, but really impressive DR for price!)
5D mk3 raw - was tempted to sell the 1DC and go 5d raw, but still, I love the 4k and low light too much.
GH4 (specs dream, but still m43, and seems to have less aesthetically appealing look than the 1DC at this time, but at that price, I am very open to being proven wrong.)


Really, right now, the only other camera that shares a very close relationship with the 1DC is the GH4. And between the 2, I think I still prefer the 1DC overall.



The digital imaging world has hit a very specific place, that awkward crevice between better than film and video. The range from 10+ to 13+ stops DR is a tease, looking organic until it clips, and then looking like video there. Whereas anything under 10stops DR looks video throughout the range, and clipped highlights are expected.

I wish Canon had a sensor that competed with Nikon/Sony or the best cinema cameras in terms of latitude, but I can see with the 1DC that c-log is really getting a lot out of the sensor. DXO rates the 1DC as Canon's best sensor, with 11.8 stops DR. C-log is giving us that, and some claim more. So, Canon just got behind in DR tech at the sensor level, but it also gave us the best lowlight, and some of the best in-camera color mojo anywhere.


From a practical standpoint, it supersedes the needs of many of the venues content is showed on. Truth be told, I dislike the look of the C series highlights. And 8bit really hurts tonality in a subtle way. But the FS700 somehow looks digital, as well. So, just because I dislike the Canon, doesn't mean I like the other cameras. The other cameras have bad digital looks too.

I am currently embracing the look of any camera I get my hands on, and running with that. There are so many options these days, that I have stopped focusing on what one camera doesn't offer, and started looking at the potential in every camera. - So, I dislike it when a camera is touted, but also hate it when a camera is singled out.

Canon, the company will have to sort out its products with the competition, but only people on forums are complaining about them. Everyone I meet loves them. So, Canon probably won't be learning any lessons from their latest business practices.

Th 1DC is interesting, because it is such a tease. So much awesome potential, but such a high price for 8bit. Take the price out of the equation, and it is an awesome camera again.






TO the point of "highlight clipping". I agree. the C-series cameras clip earlier than almost any other current "CINEMA" branded camera. There is no point denying that. I remember pointing that out when the C300 first released the demo videos/shortfilms.

One of the things that bothered me when I first went out to shoot docu work with the 1DC was the highlight clipping. I thought,"Ok, here I have a compact camera, and it looks like pure cinema gold until it gets into a challenging situation, and then this video clipping comes out of no where. So, why not just bring another small camera hybrid, or use an iphone, and save on weight, bulk, and cost?"

...very simply, it still looks better than any other compact.



I dream of the day a camera will shoot closer to how my eyes see, but have learned to work with the 1DC, and I find I appreciate it, and it surprises me. because, all of a sudden, I realize I am not carrying around v-mount batteries, or worrying about iso1600(clean) (3200 for some and iso6400 for you that don't mind a little salt and pepper). Suddenly, I find myself bringing the camera along on a whim, not something I did even with some of the miniDV cameras. And as they say, "best camera, is the camera you have with you".

So, in a production world, I can see little benefit to a 1DC. But in rentals, I would rent a 1DC over the 7d or 5d. similar price and far superior image. But if a production can afford an Alexa, well even Red and Sony have a hard time competing with Arri, then there is no need to worry about a 1D-C. As for the BMC 2.5k? Yeah, can think of the commercial/indie film world shooting with that over the 1DC. The BMC is awesome "bang" for buck. I am glad they are out there. But I dislike the camera for my own uses, and prefer the dslr/mirrorless cams with more tactile controls and lowlight abilities and larger sensor filed of view.

In the DSLR/mirrorless world, all of the companies have held back in specs. So, I cannot single out Canon. But Canon is the only one that had a 4K mojo machine in the palm of customers hands in all of 2013. It was a higher price than I would have liked, and Canon could have softened that blow by giving 10bit HD. Because even then the C300 still has pro i/o, exposure tools, and ND. So, there would still have been market distinction. Would be great to bring back some of the staying power of the 1D-C by updating it with 10bit HD. We'll see.



--------------------------------------------

In case you don't want to read all of that. here is a simpler bullet list, which may oversimplify the situation.

1. Canon highlights clip in a video way. I disliked this since the C300 first released demo films. But, still miles above any dslr prior to 2014.
2. The 1D-C is not a production camera. There are aspects of this camera that make it better than anything else available in any price range, but it is not going to be competing with production cameras. Just please, stop renting 7D's. I would much much rather shoot with a 1D-C than any of the other dslr's (ok, 5d3 raw, maybe).
3. The 1D-C 8bit does show up occasionally in challenging situations. And imho, the tonality is never as rich as I'd like it to be, but this is more compression issue in HD. The 4K is gorgeous. Gives sony f3 a run for it's money.
4. The things that need to be address with a second version: live exposure tools, higher bit rate, less jello. (and if I am being picky, a couple more user programable options for the video side of things) After that, it will be down to Canon getting more dynamic range in their new sensors.
5. We all hate Canon, but no one else is truly competing in the same spaces:
-Nikon (no log or 10bit video or ML),
-Panasonic (less DR, no log, still 8bit until the GH4),
-Sony (get an f series, or get the f out, because our dslr's suck, "I love you NEX!, sorry forgot about you!"),
-BMC (ergonomics? you figure it out, we sell serious hardware, and have this battery, apple does that s*%t. I love apple. Wish I was apple.)
-Red (we will stick to what we do best, being beasts, American muscle... oh, did you just hear that? we just won, son!),
-Arri (hmmm, ok, we'll make a $40,000 compact shoulder mount, and yeah, our old stuff is still the best),
-Kodak (sorry, a months worth of film doesn't fit in a backpack. PS, I know you are going to find someone that makes you happy one day. You are putting me on a pedestal, and I think that is hurting you, because I am not worthy, and it makes me feel terrible. You are a great person, and I still respect you, but I don't feel the same way about you.)
-Sigma/leica/hassy/fuji/casio/olympus (hi, guys! `click`),
-Samsung (Korean is the best. Suck it Japan),
-cellphones (um, we are maturing and we don't know what to do. um, hello, my eyes are up here, dude.)




Bottom line opinion, that seems universal about the 1D-C, and we can stop talking about really: "I freakin' love this camera, just wish it didn't cost so much!" or "I love this camera, just wish it had 10 or 12bit option!". I have never heard anyone say otherwise.

 

[lightstrum]

Let's list all of the digital cameras that are definitively better than a Canon 1DC.

Arri Alexa/Amira
Epic Dragon
Scarlet MX
F65
F55/F5
Genesis (F35)
F3 (though, when comparing other features and 4K, it is hard to choose between these two cameras at times. becomes situational. 1080 production, the sony wins hands down. Canon everything else.)

That's not a lot of cameras, and most of those cost more. And all of them cost more brand new.


Now let's see cameras that share the awkward space with 1DC, for one reason, or another:
FS700 (slowmo, but 4k brings the price up a bit, and adds bulk and frankenrigging)
Canon C300/C100 (built in ND and less rolling shutter)
BMC 2.5k (crop sensor, not for lowlight, built in battery creates an explosive threat similiar to laptops and cellphones?)
5D mk3 raw
GH4 (specs dream, but still m43, and seems to have less aesthetically appealing look than the 1DC at this time.)

Add the C500 to the top list.

But, I agree with Andree, let's stop feeding this.

 

[Guest]

Add the C500 to the top list.

But, I agree with Andree, let's stop feeding this.

Agreed. Though, I haven't had a good 'camera' debate in good bit, and I do like sharing my thoughts about the dslr form and function factor. I wrote quite a bit, but hope that will last me a few months. And it will probably be the last time I talk about the 1D-C like that for a while. haha. Added the C500 =) Cheers.

 

[maarek]

Nothing to do with the DP, but rather with the C-series 'limited' DR and the way highlights clip, which give the footage this video look that screams "soup opera", which is ok for some documentaries but inappropriate for many projects, as commercials or tv drama, as the video look "cheapens" the product. It was the same with the much more expensive Viper or with the F35.

I just shot a little music video with the 1DC and I can only say: "What in the blue hell are you babbling about?". I graded it very strongly, it looks great. Are you actually shooting stuff or just typing away without any real experience anywhere? 1DC has it's own issues but apparently so do you.

I shot ISO 12800 with an f1.4 lens and got the stars in the same shot as the actress and it still looked pretty good. What other camera could've done that? Didn't use Canon Log though.

 

[lightstrum]

I just shot a little music video with the 1DC and I can only say: "What in the blue hell are you babbling about?". I graded it very strongly, it looks great. Are you actually shooting stuff or just typing away without any real experience anywhere? 1DC has it's own issues but apparently so do you.

Amen.

 

[Kholi]

One thing's for sure, he hasn't insulted any of you, but two of you are insulting him for stating his opinion (mostly tactfully).

It's a Versus thread, someone's going to disagree with you, if you don't like it then wander away. Tolerance for insults have become extremely low.

 

[AndreeOnline]

Agreed. Though, I haven't had a good 'camera' debate in good bit, and I do like sharing my thoughts about the dslr form and function factor.

I enjoyed reading your post James—excellent.

General comments now:
The futility in discussing all of this—and I know we all agree—is that our individual needs are so different. Granted, there a few camera characteristics that can be objectively compared, but the assumption that we rank their relative importance the same is a rushed conclusion by those who think that way.

Regarding Canon: I don't hate them. Looking strictly at specs and price, I understand why some become cynical. I don't think that's the whole story though. I believe that they are serious about hardware and IQ and that many tend to forget the things that aren't so easily listed in bullet points. Kind of like how I know and FEEL that my aluminum MacBook Pro is different from that of a competitor offering a plastic solution.

The 1Dc has been out a while now. If it's so expensive and weak from a spec perspective... where is the competitor that trashes it? Puh-lease don't mention the G4.... No one other than Canon is even trying to offer us something like this. I'm not sure anyone can at this point in time. Canon deserves some respect for that.

Let's hope they've got some great sensors coming our way. If they've got it, I think they will bring it. It's not exactly a stagnant market, and there are few awards for 2nd best.

 

[Kholi]

The 1Dc has been out a while now. If it's so expensive and weak from a spec perspective... where is the competitor that trashes it? Puh-lease don't mention the G4.... No one other than Canon is even trying to offer us something like this. I'm not sure anyone can at this point in time. Canon deserves some respect for that.

That's an interesting thought. Why not mention the GH4? From what I can tell:

- SDI Module Options
- Built-in waveforms, scopes, motion picture options (small items like the shutter display count for some people)
- 4K, UHD, 1080/96FPS
- LIkely similar DR to the 1DC
- Similar images (DSLRish looks)
- Articulating screen for those that don't want to use on-boards
- HDMI > 4K options soon
- Cinegamma modes (needs LOG IMO)


What am I missing, outside of maybe build quality and sensor size, that wouldn't make it a competitor to the 1DC? If not a better choice on paper. I'm probably forgetting something.

 

[AndreeOnline]

That's an interesting thought. Why not mention the GH4?

The whole stills side of the pipeline, including metering, AF-system, FPS... general performance.

And for me there is no "outside of..." when talking about sensor size, ergonomics or build quality. Those ARE the things that will cost when combined.

For my part, I am using the 1Dc at least as much for stills as for video (I'm assuming that's what it is built for). It's clear to me that if you want to discuss price you need to assess all its abilities.

The moment you see micro 4/3 and full frame (1.3 crop for video) as the same ballpark, that's going to open up doors for sure. If you only need a subset of the 1Dc's features, of course you're going to find a cheaper camera that capitalizes on that!

 

[Guest]

That's an interesting thought. Why not mention the GH4? From what I can tell:

- SDI Module Options
- Built-in waveforms, scopes, motion picture options (small items like the shutter display count for some people)
- 4K, UHD, 1080/96FPS
- LIkely similar DR to the 1DC
- Similar images (DSLRish looks)
- Articulating screen for those that don't want to use on-boards
- HDMI > 4K options soon
- Cinegamma modes (needs LOG IMO)


What am I missing, outside of maybe build quality and sensor size, that wouldn't make it a competitor to the 1DC? If not a better choice on paper. I'm probably forgetting something.

A couple things.

-No native s35. Not even native M43 (it's cropped smaller than M43). One can use a speed booster, and supposedly it makes everything better, but you are still asking people to put glass between their lens and their medium. That effects the look, even if it doesn't matter.
-The DR looks similar, but have yet to determine whether it is as aesthetically pleasing as C-log. If I were to take a stab, I'd say it is a stop less. Not where I want to go.
-The add-on grip does not look like something I want to hold or touch. And is required for 4k 10bit?.

So it compares in specs, but not absolutely in practical application. plenty of cross over, but 1D-C is still a grab and go 4k mojo camera you can take to the craziest places, and it feels great in the hand, image looks great, and as long as you can see with the eye, you can shoot with available light.

On the flip side, the GH4 does things the 1D-C does not. And it seems more suited to a production workflow than the 1D-C. So, I see the GH4 more as an awesome multicamera for events, as well as potentially stealing some BMC thunder. Whereas the 1D-C inherits the fine elegance of a premium work horse, and could go down the route of being a artist/craftsmen's choice if they can get some live exposure tools in there. Depends on if Nikon gets in the game, assuming they would even make good decisions about functions.

 

[Kholi]

The whole stills side of the pipeline, including metering, AF-system, FPS... general performance.

And for me there is no "outside of..." when talking about sensor size, ergonomics or build quality. Those ARE the things that will cost when combined.

For my part, I am using the 1Dc at least as much for stills as for video (I'm assuming that's what it is built for). It's clear to me that if you want to discuss price you need to assess all its abilities.

The moment you see micro 4/3 and full frame (1.3 crop for video) as the same ballpark, that's going to open up doors for sure. If you only need a subset of the 1Dc's features, of course you're going to find a cheaper camera that capitalizes on that!

Whoaaaa whoa whoa I never mentioned price at all. hahaha In fact I think I forgot that it was cheaper than the 1DC, never came into the equation.

I did however neglect the entire stills side, and it's because we're on DVXuser, a video/filmmaking forum. If you need to consider stills then that's an entirely different comparison, video for video though I do think that the Sensor size in this case really isn't a big deal. But, it is one area where they are different.

Is there anything else?

A couple things.

-No native s35. Not even native M43 (it's cropped smaller than M43). One can use a speed booster, and supposedly it makes everything better, but you are still asking people to put glass between their lens and their medium. That effects the look, even if it doesn't matter.
-The DR looks similar, but have yet to determine whether it is as aesthetically pleasing as C-log. If I were to take a stab, I'd say it is a stop less. Not where I want to go.
-The add-on grip does not look like something I want to hold or touch. And is required for 4k 10bit?.

So it compares in specs, but not absolutely in practical application. plenty of cross over, but 1D-C is still a grab and go 4k mojo camera you can take to the craziest places, and it feels great in the hand, looks great, and as long as you can see with the eye, you can shoot with available light.

On the flip side, the GH4 does things the 1D-C does not. And it seems more suited to a production workflow than the 1D-C. So, I see the GH4 more as an awesome multicamera for events, as well as potentially stealing some BMC thunder. Whereas the 1D-C inherits the fine elegance of a premium work horse, and could go down the route of being a artist/craftsmen's choice if they can get some live exposure tools in there. Depends on if Nikon gets in the game, assuming they would even make good decisions about functions.

It does seem like the only big difference would be the Sensor size. Thinking even the 8-bit 422 isn't much of a gain over internal 4K/UHD 8-bit 420, but of course that's an opinion.

DR... mmm... I'm pretty sure they're the same. So does lowlight performance from what I've seen (not available on the web).

The YAGGGGHHHHH is a very strange thing, very strange. Practicality for motion picture? It may be ugly, but it surely knocks any other DSLR's capabilities out just on SDI output alone. HDMI is THE most impractical connection for any environment on the planet.

I'm not sure, I guess I'm really confused... to say that the GH4 is less practical (even the flip out/articulating screen gives it an edge up over anything Canon's got in DSLR land for video) than the 1DC for video... especially since it has the things that you're asking for in the 1DC? Waves, etc., without any hacks. It's also a smaller camera... so taking it places... I mean it's a smaller camera?

Disclaimer: I'm always confused, can't seem to make heads or tails of a lot of posts these days, so take it with a grain of salt and if there's a way to clear my confusion, that would be most appreciated.


Edit edit: I guess it's off-topic, though, because it's 1DC vs B4K/Production Camera, haha.

 

[Kholi]

Oh, note, HMDI = 10Bit 4K, so the YARRRGGHHH isn't required, and that means a 4K 10Bit camera for around 2500.00 after it's all said and done.

In the GH4's defense, at least you have the option to go 4K 10-bit.

 

[Guest]

The whole stills side of the pipeline, including metering, AF-system, FPS... general performance.

And for me there is no "outside of..." when talking about sensor size, ergonomics or build quality. Those ARE the things that will cost when combined.

For my part, I am using the 1Dc at least as much for stills as for video (I'm assuming that's what it is built for). It's clear to me that if you want to discuss price you need to assess all its abilities.

The moment you see micro 4/3 and full frame (1.3 crop for video) as the same ballpark, that's going to open up doors for sure. If you only need a subset of the 1Dc's features, of course you're going to find a cheaper camera that capitalizes on that!

I am glad you mentioned the stills side. In this forum, I tend to judge the 1D-C on motion capture alone, yet I definitely enjoy using it as a stills camera quite often.