No way I'd buy a 1dc for 12k a month before nab. I've shot with it a lot, it's a great small cam if shooting 4k and finishing 1080, but not to finish in 4k with heavy grading. If you don't have to push it around a lot with color in post, then a 4k finish will hold up. There is still a thinness to the image if grading and finishing 4k as compared to say an epic which is very dense, but large price difference there. I've not shot with any blackmagic cam yet....
1DC: 1DC or BMPC
- Thread starter lealain
- Start date
AndreeOnline
Veteran
The benefit of being a non-owner is of course that you can always rent what you need.
I don't think NAB will do much to change the 1Dc's position or price. It's not that easy to record quality compressed 4k internally. Most other offerings seem to go the *more* compressed route, or use add-ons.
I especially think the combination of highest end stills camera (metering, AF, build, performance) and 4k internal video is tough to challenge at consumer price points. $12k is *not* for that one 4k feature.
I don't think NAB will do much to change the 1Dc's position or price. It's not that easy to record quality compressed 4k internally. Most other offerings seem to go the *more* compressed route, or use add-ons.
I especially think the combination of highest end stills camera (metering, AF, build, performance) and 4k internal video is tough to challenge at consumer price points. $12k is *not* for that one 4k feature.
G
Guest
Guest
Not to mention ergonomics and control layouts. Or lens integration (for some)
cookinghusband
Well-known member
Actually the Yen exchange rates have dropped quite a bit since 1DC's introduction. The price reduction across the Canon range of stuff start to reflect.
As a Marketing Manager myself, I can tell the 1DC was "engineered" by Canon's Marketing Dpt, rather than the Engineer Dpt, simply by taking the existing 1DX, adding a $1 heatsink (if any), and setting its price as high as the market could bear, given there was no other similar competing product. Canon purposely set it as a "high_price-low_volume" item, catering to the upper end of the market, both for pros (Hollywood crash-cam) and amateurs (lawyers, doctors).
The 1DC is a GREAT product, but not at the €10k price point IMO. For the exact same amount for working freelancers, for instance, you can buy a 5D3+C100+BMPC4K+Resolve, which shows how artificially overpriced (marketing Dtp's job) the 1DC is. Just compare the lifespans, capabilities, features and fields of work covered from those two €10k options.
Had the 1DC have 10bit, 4:2:2 throughout, internal ProRes recording -rather than a paltry 80's MJPEG codec (!), 60P, plus Zebras, Waveforms and peaking, YES, the 1DC would easily be worth €10k. But let's remember it's still a DSLR. That means it's a MOS camera, and that for proper video, still requires the typical €5k package (EVF, Sounddevices, V-Mount Batts, NDs, Shoulder rig..)
At the current asking price, the 1DC only makes sense for the scubadiver/alpinist-journalist for which there's no other option.
The 1DC is a GREAT product, but not at the €10k price point IMO. For the exact same amount for working freelancers, for instance, you can buy a 5D3+C100+BMPC4K+Resolve, which shows how artificially overpriced (marketing Dtp's job) the 1DC is. Just compare the lifespans, capabilities, features and fields of work covered from those two €10k options.
Had the 1DC have 10bit, 4:2:2 throughout, internal ProRes recording -rather than a paltry 80's MJPEG codec (!), 60P, plus Zebras, Waveforms and peaking, YES, the 1DC would easily be worth €10k. But let's remember it's still a DSLR. That means it's a MOS camera, and that for proper video, still requires the typical €5k package (EVF, Sounddevices, V-Mount Batts, NDs, Shoulder rig..)
At the current asking price, the 1DC only makes sense for the scubadiver/alpinist-journalist for which there's no other option.
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AndreeOnline
Veteran
I smiled when I read this. =) From my perspective you are looking at it backwards.
Take that guy... with the 5Dmk3, C100, MBPC, Resolve and whatnot.. and tell him: for all the money you invested, you can have all of that in ONE product, in the form of a time proven hand held format of a DSLR. Touché!
That's what the 1Dc is. It's not about how big the pile of crap is, that you get for $12k. It's about how small.
/Not a laywer, not a doctor. I guess I am a scuba diver and alpinist, but that's unrelated to the fact that I am one very happy 1Dc owner.
And honestly, if your 1Dc doesn't pay for itself... isn't a 5Dmk3 good enough? It's an excellent camera.
G
Guest
Guest
I support the DSLR form factor. And I love the all-in-one aspect. It was expensive for some of the specs, but it was, and still is, a unique product. And it is the kind of product I would like to see developed.
AndreeOnline
Veteran
It would be great to see the model live on and be developed based on user feedback. Developing technology will allow for some of the most desired things to be integrated in time.
From time to time I hear: "lower taxes, more welfare!". Most of us realise the irony in that. Sometimes I kind of get the same feeling when it comes to camera tech; people don't understand the limitations of form factor or cost. They cherry pick specs from lower prices products and want to "magically bake them in", without considering compromises that might have been made to include them in the lower priced product.
And when it comes to the 1Dc it seems very popular to compare it to video only cameras, and then look at prices, as if video was all the 1Dc did.
I think the more "real" we are able to relate to it, the less frustration.
I'd like as well to see the 1DC developed further, as I was going to buy one, being the perfect travel piece. But when I found it still was an 8 bit camera, with serious banding issues and 420 at S35, with a terrible MJPEG codec, I had to pass as it wasn't fit for pro work. It falls apart in post.
As for my example and comparison, for the freelancer for which money is tight, and cameras are disposable items that must be amortized rapidly and fulfill the most diverse tasks, here's my reasonning. The C100 is the run and gun with NDs and XLR+48v, and a cheap ninja makes it broadcast safe. The BMC is for narrative/controlled shoots, with RAW and 13 stops, you CAN untercut it with ALEXAs (as we've done many times). Finally, the 5D3 is the stills cam. On top of that, together you get a A+B (+C) video system should you need it, and at the end of the day, the resale value of the 3 is way above that of the 1DC alone.
I'm looking forward to the 1DCmkII. If they put in a proper processor (like on the sub $1k BMPC, gasp!) so that it can do ProRes at 10bit and 60p, I'm all over it. Zebras and WF would be nice too.
Knowing Canon, I'm not holding my breath though, unfortunately.
As for my example and comparison, for the freelancer for which money is tight, and cameras are disposable items that must be amortized rapidly and fulfill the most diverse tasks, here's my reasonning. The C100 is the run and gun with NDs and XLR+48v, and a cheap ninja makes it broadcast safe. The BMC is for narrative/controlled shoots, with RAW and 13 stops, you CAN untercut it with ALEXAs (as we've done many times). Finally, the 5D3 is the stills cam. On top of that, together you get a A+B (+C) video system should you need it, and at the end of the day, the resale value of the 3 is way above that of the 1DC alone.
I'm looking forward to the 1DCmkII. If they put in a proper processor (like on the sub $1k BMPC, gasp!) so that it can do ProRes at 10bit and 60p, I'm all over it. Zebras and WF would be nice too.
Knowing Canon, I'm not holding my breath though, unfortunately.
lightstrum
Well-known member
You are of course not mentioning one of the 1d c greatest strengths- the 1.3 crop- try that on your BM cameras or the new GH4 (which I will buy but never a BM!) and it cut with Alexas just fine on "Need for Speed" and, and, and, and so forth. Jeesh. I also have a c500. I wish it had the 1.3 crop. the 1D c is way fit for pro work. Some "pros" aren't fit for it.
G
Guest
Guest
I love love love 1.3 crop. One of the major reasons for buying was 1.3 crop.
1. Firstly, I like that field of view. And I like to shoot with it and not crop.
2. perfect s35 2k anamorphic
3. can crop or resize in HD.
4. another tool in the tool bag.
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The 1DC is overpriced. On purpose. All manufacturers do that, just to have a flagship product, which is a marketing asset. Period.
I own no camera cause I think it's pointless, everything is to be rented. For the Job. (well, i do own cameras, but only for trying out ideas, would never buy a C500/RED... when Alexas are just 500/day and the Prod Company pays for them).
The BMC is a stunning product for the price and intercuts with ALEXA perfectly. Check it out here, in this BOSCH commercial, shot just a year ago (gosh, has it been 12 months already?)
https://vimeo.com/62832482
Canon current C-series don't cut it for commercials or drama, unfortunately, due to their limited DR and nasty highlight clipping.
I look forward to the 1DC mk2, if it ever happens, and I might buy it for myself if it has 10 bit and 60p, as it will be the perfect travel/all-round Stills+Video cam.
I own no camera cause I think it's pointless, everything is to be rented. For the Job. (well, i do own cameras, but only for trying out ideas, would never buy a C500/RED... when Alexas are just 500/day and the Prod Company pays for them).
The BMC is a stunning product for the price and intercuts with ALEXA perfectly. Check it out here, in this BOSCH commercial, shot just a year ago (gosh, has it been 12 months already?)
https://vimeo.com/62832482
Canon current C-series don't cut it for commercials or drama, unfortunately, due to their limited DR and nasty highlight clipping.
I look forward to the 1DC mk2, if it ever happens, and I might buy it for myself if it has 10 bit and 60p, as it will be the perfect travel/all-round Stills+Video cam.
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JoeJITSU
Veteran
Well the BMC also is known for its poor DR and lowlight also. So there are some downsides to many cameras, Film still rules in Dynamic Range.
G
Guest
Guest
That is good. I have been getting away from owning lately. Although, I like to own a camera. I like getting to know a camera.
Sadly for me, the BMC is not as tactile and personal as an iphone, or a dslr. I will never be able to just bring along a BMC or an Alexa, nor an F3.
You may be making a strong case for why you do not like the Canons. But you are using a slanted argument.
I agree, the DR and latitude on Canon cameras is not where I want it. Even the Alexa clips too digitally and early for my liking. Even film doesn't look the way I want it to look.
There is so much improvement to be made in camera tech, that I am always surprised by what gets held back. The 1DC seems a bit oddly reserved. Not only does it have less DR than the average cinema camera. not only does it have jello. but it is also limited to 8bits, which seems an unnecessary penalty to the user, since one would upgrade the second there is a universal shutter version with more DR.
But...
...to just talk about the image spec's is ignoring the other side of things. You can bash Canon for 8bit, but BMC can ignore ergonomics, button layouts, low-light, and the need for a speed booster, because it has a stop or two more latitude at iso800.
I have had the Alexa, BMC and 1DC in the same room before, and the BMC was able to handle(relative term) similar light ratios as the Alexa. Skin didn't seem to be in the same place, but not bad. Whereas the 1DC seemed to need another stop or 2 to handle the same scenes. I have to lose detail in the highlights or shadows.
Now..., which of those cameras would I take home? On the one hand, I would love to have the best IQ, but on the other, I want it to cost less than a car. On the one hand I want 10 or 12 bit, on the other, I want something I can throw in a fanny pack and bring anywhere. On the one hand, I want the best DR, on the other I want the best lowlight. On the on hand I want 4k.... oh wait, I have it.
See where I am going? Other companies are making serious sins against cinematographers. So, they are giving us dynamic range, but they are not making cameras we want to hold. They give us raw, but they don't give us the field of view. And they might give us 10 or 12bit, but may lack in in-camera color science. etc, etc. The arguments go so many ways.
The 1DC was a marketing dept camer(aren't they all?)? but it and the GH4 are still the only ones out there that even do what they can do. Why has Nikon or Sony not done it yet? Could be argued, why hasn't Red or Alexa made a compact all in one camera yet?
The 1DC would be a dream with:
-10bit internal recording
-built in EVF
-Live waveforms
-less or no rolling shutter
-edit friendly codec
-a few more cinema centric user programable button configuration options.
-13.5 stops DR or more
-built in ND (debatable need, but nice option)
The BMC would be a dream with:
-4k (yeah, it matters)
-1.3 crop
-better lowlight performance in 1600 to 3200 iso (a range I use frequently)
-ergonomics. anything. something.
-replaceable battery so an externally mounted battery wasn't needed.
-built in ND (debatable need, but nice option)
-less moire'
-better colors straight out of the camera
-tactile user programable buttons and dials
-better wether sealing
-product cycles that didn't feel like fodder for landfills.
The Alexa would be a dream... if it were the Amira. (but I still like smaller cameras)
Truth is, when you look at things besides the price-tag, you begin to see that there are many factors which effect how much you like a camera.
There is a lot of technical progress to be made in digital imaging. Alexa IQ has never been that great to me. Always seemed like the beginnings of good, but not quite good yet. Dragon is also in that camp. We still have a lot of money that has to go into display and media tech to get better IQ. At this point we are getting into a bottle neck. Every time I see a RED/Alexa show in the real world, there is banding or contrast issues far worse than anything I have seen from any 8bit camera since miniDV. Making it seem like they might as well have shot with an 8bit camera (forgive me, I know i know).
Canon should have implemented 10bit on the 1DC. But I will not spend my money on a BMC 2.5k, tempting as 13stops DR and prores is.
At the end of the day, are we pushing companies to give us better cameras, or just pressing for something they will interpret as a marketable buzz word? Another spec to cram into a disposable cheap camera we can throw away.
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lightstrum
Well-known member
James, you have summed it up nicely. I would just like to add, in response to some of the above chatter about what is- perfect and just rent what the production will pay for- that, when you make a decision to own your equipment and take on the responsibilities, limitations and freedoms that it offers, that for me -right now- is best served in the Canon ecosystem and I am betting that Canon will continue to improve and continue to support their gear, and, Canon is built to last. In five years, when I have upgraded to the latest and greatest- 15 stops DR!!!, no highlight clipping 10 feet from the nearest supernova!!!, and a newcomer buys my 1D c and rocks the world with his ideas and talent, not one person is going to go on about clipped highlights, limited DR etc, etc, blah, blah, xxxxing blah...
...that is not one sane person, people like us on these forums will of course continue to drive ourselves crazy with why somebody doesn't make a perfect camera.
...that is not one sane person, people like us on these forums will of course continue to drive ourselves crazy with why somebody doesn't make a perfect camera.
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James,
I've been a CPS member for about a decade, so I know Canon pretty well. I'm just disappointed for the way they've bee developing stuff lately, now being more "Soon Only Not Yet" than SONY itself.
I was pretty excited with all the Hollywood C-series and Scorsese fanfare, only to find out after the introduction, it was all just a paltry 8bit camera for realities at most, designed to compete with the already dated Sony F3, improving only on the internal codec (the F3 still brings 10bit 444 and 60p with an external recorder). Same with the 1DC: 8bit , MJPEG and no 60p, nor Waveform, zebras etc. It would have been ok at $1k more than the 1DX, but not at twice the price, being exactly the same product. And what about the C500 at €25k? Once you add a CODEX and all the rest it costs/rents for the same as an ALEXA and it's still a less capable frankencamera. Just pointless (at the price points).
This thread is about 1DC vs BMC4K. Given the features and price points, the 1DC makes no sense IMO. Unless you need to put it into an Aquatech for diving or take it to the snow and such, for which the 1DC really EXCELS and has NO rivals.
It would also be stunning for everything else, if only it had 10+bit ProRes, Waveforms and 60p. But it doesn't, because Canon the corporation only wants to tease, and bring one improvement at a time, with each new model. Sony has apparently learnt the lesson with the F5/55 though.
Again, features/price, for the freelancer, he's better served IMO with the 5D3+C100+Ninja+BMC/4k+Resolve package for the same (artificial) price as the 1DC, ending up with the same stills+RunAndGun+4k capabilities, plus A+B+C/backup cams, no rolling shutter and better 4K, and integral NDs+XLRs+48v with onboard audio rec (no more MOS cameras).
I've been a CPS member for about a decade, so I know Canon pretty well. I'm just disappointed for the way they've bee developing stuff lately, now being more "Soon Only Not Yet" than SONY itself.
I was pretty excited with all the Hollywood C-series and Scorsese fanfare, only to find out after the introduction, it was all just a paltry 8bit camera for realities at most, designed to compete with the already dated Sony F3, improving only on the internal codec (the F3 still brings 10bit 444 and 60p with an external recorder). Same with the 1DC: 8bit , MJPEG and no 60p, nor Waveform, zebras etc. It would have been ok at $1k more than the 1DX, but not at twice the price, being exactly the same product. And what about the C500 at €25k? Once you add a CODEX and all the rest it costs/rents for the same as an ALEXA and it's still a less capable frankencamera. Just pointless (at the price points).
This thread is about 1DC vs BMC4K. Given the features and price points, the 1DC makes no sense IMO. Unless you need to put it into an Aquatech for diving or take it to the snow and such, for which the 1DC really EXCELS and has NO rivals.
It would also be stunning for everything else, if only it had 10+bit ProRes, Waveforms and 60p. But it doesn't, because Canon the corporation only wants to tease, and bring one improvement at a time, with each new model. Sony has apparently learnt the lesson with the F5/55 though.
Again, features/price, for the freelancer, he's better served IMO with the 5D3+C100+Ninja+BMC/4k+Resolve package for the same (artificial) price as the 1DC, ending up with the same stills+RunAndGun+4k capabilities, plus A+B+C/backup cams, no rolling shutter and better 4K, and integral NDs+XLRs+48v with onboard audio rec (no more MOS cameras).
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BTW I don't care about 4K. ALL Blockbusters are shot with Alexas. Even if some is shot at 4k, it's later finished at 2k. Also, 50% of EU Broadcasters are still in SD, not even in HD. Commercials and drama are all HD. Productions have to be amortized in months, NOBODY cares how to monetize them 5-10 years from now.
I'd be fine with a future 1DC mk2 if it only does 2K, as long as comes ProRes, 10bit and 60p. And Waveforms.
I'd be fine with a future 1DC mk2 if it only does 2K, as long as comes ProRes, 10bit and 60p. And Waveforms.
AndreeOnline
Veteran
No offense, jindrich, but have you shot enough with the 1Dc to learn it? I'm assuming you HAVE shot with it. It already has 60p for instance.
I have never run into a situation when I've felt limited by the 422, 8-bit, 500 Mbit/s codec. I regularly grade in Resolve.
The 1Dc was designed to be as efficient as possible, taking 4k internal capture into consideration. MJPEG is pretty old, but that doesn't automatically make it bad. If you're looking at compression effectiveness compared to, let's say avchd, you'll see that MJEPG only achieves around 1:20, while avchd might do 1:50 compression. Some might say it's less than half as "good" than avchd. The reason MJEPG doesn't compress as well is that it consists of only keyframes. It is an INTRA frame algorithm. Avchd uses INTER frame compression, meaning that several consecutive frames are only mathematical derivates of the real data. MJEPG is for instance totally insensitive to motion between frames. Complex motion (a waterfall is one example) is difficult for INTER frame codecs.
I'm not saying that MJPEG can't be improved. I just don't think it's a considerable limitation for the 1Dc. The 1Dc is classified as a tier 1 camera by the European Broadcast Union. It has passed the necessary tests (regardless of camera form factor) and delivers that type of image quality. If you get substandard results (image falling apart, banding etc), in all fairness, it might be appropriate to check other links in the chain—including the operator.
Hi Andree,
1DC's FF and 60p modes are not that good, actually identical to the 1DX. It's only the S35 and 4K that are worth it, and then again the s35 is 4:2:0 IPB/ALL-I (same as C100) and the 4K wastes GBs with an 1980's MJPEG codec at 8bit, that can only be graded successfully when downgraded to HD.
I know all Canon cams pretty well, just like models from many other brands. I know all MPEG flavors as much as the CTDM from old Betacam. Besides been an economist, I studied cinematography in Prag, photography in Stuttgart and a bit of engineering in Spain, speak 4 languages, not counting several programming languages or codecs (done with that), so I'm a total gearhead.
My background is Marketing, TV, Branding and Advertising though. Such productions are the equivalent of Hollywood movies in terms of budget and QC, with TV commercials production costs averaging €250k for 30sec, up to $2M (last year for Captain Morgan), so I might be a bit too stringent over image quality.
Regarding products released in the last decade, I believe Canon marketing has been playing tricks with their customers, regardless of what the very capable Engineering Dpt. did. For instance, they released the 300D which was exactly a 10D in a lesser body with crippled firmware, which hackers ultimately found out, to Canon dismay. This has been going of forever: 5D and 5D2 using the same 10year old AF despite being sold at $3k until competitors put that to shame. The C300 was a product rushed to market when only the sensor part was ready, so they strapped XF300's 8 bit backend but put it a 3x times price tag. It was all about filling the 2 year "window of opportunity" left with the F3 not being broadcast safe. Then there's 1DC vs 1DX, the ML hacks revealing the real features of the newer cams, and on and on.
The 1DC or C300/500 are very nice products, but IMO quite overpriced and purposely underspecced, just to to leave room for an improved model, every couple of years. This has been Sony's game for a long time, but Canon has just mastered it in the last decade. Due to those limitations, those cams aren't ready for true "prime time", while they surely could have been. Unfortunately, they don't resolve enough for the $ stuff, commercials, drama, or even reality TV.
Take german TV, which you surely know about, wenn du aus der Schweiz kommst. For instance, Pro7's "Germany's Next Top Model" isn't shot on C series but on F800s, plus FS700 for slowmotion, with the odd 7D/C300 as C cams. ZDF, ARD movies or series like "Tatort" shot on Alexas. Commercials shot with more Alexas with BMCs as B cams, etc.
The 1DC might be 1tier but nobody uses them. For low budget stuff operators will rather use PMW200/300s. For commercials neither the C300/1DC cut it as their highlight clipping looks too videoy, unlike the "free" BMC (comes with Resolve, which btw cost $100k just a few years ago). Heck, even the $1k BMPCC has more DR, does Prores and RAW and looks very "filmy". That all I find a shame. Does a giant company like Canon don't have great engineers? Of course it has. But they don't have the ultimate word on what should be released. Sony has changed as of late. Canon is still too arrogant IMO.
Anyway, this was about 1DC vs BMC4K, and I stated my opinion. The 1DC is IMO overpriced and already 66% into his lifespan, so this must be considered.
Looking forward to NAB, to see what Canon might do. Don't expect much though.
1DC's FF and 60p modes are not that good, actually identical to the 1DX. It's only the S35 and 4K that are worth it, and then again the s35 is 4:2:0 IPB/ALL-I (same as C100) and the 4K wastes GBs with an 1980's MJPEG codec at 8bit, that can only be graded successfully when downgraded to HD.
I know all Canon cams pretty well, just like models from many other brands. I know all MPEG flavors as much as the CTDM from old Betacam. Besides been an economist, I studied cinematography in Prag, photography in Stuttgart and a bit of engineering in Spain, speak 4 languages, not counting several programming languages or codecs (done with that), so I'm a total gearhead.
My background is Marketing, TV, Branding and Advertising though. Such productions are the equivalent of Hollywood movies in terms of budget and QC, with TV commercials production costs averaging €250k for 30sec, up to $2M (last year for Captain Morgan), so I might be a bit too stringent over image quality.
Regarding products released in the last decade, I believe Canon marketing has been playing tricks with their customers, regardless of what the very capable Engineering Dpt. did. For instance, they released the 300D which was exactly a 10D in a lesser body with crippled firmware, which hackers ultimately found out, to Canon dismay. This has been going of forever: 5D and 5D2 using the same 10year old AF despite being sold at $3k until competitors put that to shame. The C300 was a product rushed to market when only the sensor part was ready, so they strapped XF300's 8 bit backend but put it a 3x times price tag. It was all about filling the 2 year "window of opportunity" left with the F3 not being broadcast safe. Then there's 1DC vs 1DX, the ML hacks revealing the real features of the newer cams, and on and on.
The 1DC or C300/500 are very nice products, but IMO quite overpriced and purposely underspecced, just to to leave room for an improved model, every couple of years. This has been Sony's game for a long time, but Canon has just mastered it in the last decade. Due to those limitations, those cams aren't ready for true "prime time", while they surely could have been. Unfortunately, they don't resolve enough for the $ stuff, commercials, drama, or even reality TV.
Take german TV, which you surely know about, wenn du aus der Schweiz kommst. For instance, Pro7's "Germany's Next Top Model" isn't shot on C series but on F800s, plus FS700 for slowmotion, with the odd 7D/C300 as C cams. ZDF, ARD movies or series like "Tatort" shot on Alexas. Commercials shot with more Alexas with BMCs as B cams, etc.
The 1DC might be 1tier but nobody uses them. For low budget stuff operators will rather use PMW200/300s. For commercials neither the C300/1DC cut it as their highlight clipping looks too videoy, unlike the "free" BMC (comes with Resolve, which btw cost $100k just a few years ago). Heck, even the $1k BMPCC has more DR, does Prores and RAW and looks very "filmy". That all I find a shame. Does a giant company like Canon don't have great engineers? Of course it has. But they don't have the ultimate word on what should be released. Sony has changed as of late. Canon is still too arrogant IMO.
Anyway, this was about 1DC vs BMC4K, and I stated my opinion. The 1DC is IMO overpriced and already 66% into his lifespan, so this must be considered.
Looking forward to NAB, to see what Canon might do. Don't expect much though.
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