170 or 300?

Q

qatarshooter

Member
OK, a question I'm hoping someone with experience with all three products can answer. HPX170 with a nanoflash attached or 300 without? which will provide the best image quality given Nanoflashes ability to go well above 100Mbs? Barry I am hoping you will chime in on this one.
 
its the 300 hands down image quality wise..
now on other things like rolling shutter skew or price... 170
 
I own the 170 and have shot several times with the 300. It would be the lens, processing and codec, AVC I is a pretty impressive codec. With the prices and rebate and two free 32GB P2 card offers available on the 300 right now, I would definitely buy the 300 over the 170 with a Nanoflash or not.

170 is great, but as a fixed lens camera, it has its limitations. The 300 with the better codec, better built body and ergonomics and the ability to rent really high end glass, is a much more capable camera.

Dan
 
Nanoflash has lots of bits, but it doesn't do 10-bit. HPX300 with AVC-Intra is going to look better than the Nanoflash.

The 300 can be noticeably sharper than the HPX170, yes -- and the full-size body has its own set of advantages. But the 170 is slicker and sleeker to use, it's so much lighter, smaller, has more user-friendly features spread around it, and it's nigh unto half the price of the 300. So it is not a no-brainer, you really have to decide if the sharper chips are worth the skew, and if the other advantages are worth twice the price. If I was in debate club here, I could easily argue either side quite effectively. :)
 
If I had my druthers, I would keep my 170 and buy a 300. I shoot a lot of interviews and for me, the 300 with the AVC I looks better for interviews. But I shoot an occasional red carpet and the 170 is better for that, controlled situation as far as distances from talent, tons of flashes going off, the 300 would not be good for that situation, the 170 rocks it. For travel, which I do more and more these days, the 170 all over the 300. When you are lugging that camera bag or backpack around, every extra ounce makes a big difference.

I shot a dance film last year on the 170 and one the year before on the HVX200. The one we shot on the HVX200 has done really well, played in dance film festivals all over the world and won some awards. Still waiting to finish the other one we shot last year, there is one more sequence that has to be shot. But both times, I was really wishing I had a more serious camera like the 300, the AVC I would have been much better, the longer lens would have been better. But these are art projects where I have total control over lighting, dancers, blocking, etc. Since I only move the camera cinematically with tripod, dolly or we hire a Steadicam op, the skewing wouldn't be a problem.

I guess it all comes down to what you shoot, if you travel a lot, if you shoot things where a more consumerish looking camera is a plus, like in many doc situations. I have learned from experience that the bigger the camera, the more you get hassled about everything. "Who are you?, what are shooting?, where is your permit?" whereas you often fly under the radar with the 170.

Having tested the Nanoflash for a review, it works great, but having to run an SDI cable out the back of the 170 into the Nanoflash and finding a location to put the Nanoflash onto the camera and worrying about running out of battery power for the Nano were issues that should also be considered. I often have a bracket mounted on my 170 that also holds two wireless mic receivers. There literally was nowhere else to mount the Nano. Extra cables, power, weight, etc. with the Nano = hassle and it may become so much of a hassle that you just forsake it sometimes and shoot to P2 cards. I have become quite paranoid of hooking up too much stuff to my cameras as it inevitably becomes snagged on something or gets knocked off of the camera.

If I was starting from scratch and it was me, I would lean toward the 300 but for your needs, you have to ask yourself all of these questions.

Dan
 
puredrifting said:
If I had my druthers, I would keep my 170 and buy a 300. I shoot a lot of interviews and for me, the 300 with the AVC I looks better for interviews. But I shoot an occasional red carpet and the 170 is better for that, controlled situation as far as distances from talent, tons of flashes going off, the 300 would not be good for that situation, the 170 rocks it. For travel, which I do more and more these days, the 170 all over the 300. When you are lugging that camera bag or backpack around, every extra ounce makes a big difference.

I shot a dance film last year on the 170 and one the year before on the HVX200. The one we shot on the HVX200 has done really well, played in dance film festivals all over the world and won some awards. Still waiting to finish the other one we shot last year, there is one more sequence that has to be shot. But both times, I was really wishing I had a more serious camera like the 300, the AVC I would have been much better, the longer lens would have been better. But these are art projects where I have total control over lighting, dancers, blocking, etc. Since I only move the camera cinematically with tripod, dolly or we hire a Steadicam op, the skewing wouldn't be a problem.

I guess it all comes down to what you shoot, if you travel a lot, if you shoot things where a more consumerish looking camera is a plus, like in many doc situations. I have learned from experience that the bigger the camera, the more you get hassled about everything. "Who are you?, what are shooting?, where is your permit?" whereas you often fly under the radar with the 170.

Having tested the Nanoflash for a review, it works great, but having to run an SDI cable out the back of the 170 into the Nanoflash and finding a location to put the Nanoflash onto the camera and worrying about running out of battery power for the Nano were issues that should also be considered. I often have a bracket mounted on my 170 that also holds two wireless mic receivers. There literally was nowhere else to mount the Nano. Extra cables, power, weight, etc. with the Nano = hassle and it may become so much of a hassle that you just forsake it sometimes and shoot to P2 cards. I have become quite paranoid of hooking up too much stuff to my cameras as it inevitably becomes snagged on something or gets knocked off of the camera.

If I was starting from scratch and it was me, I would lean toward the 300 but for your needs, you have to ask yourself all of these questions.

Dan
Click to expand...

I have a couple of 200's and a 300. While I don't have a 170, I find the 300's
shoulder mount format to be much more conducive to the "walk around"
red-carpet like environment. With Flash Band Compensation turned on, the
300 tolerates flash photography pretty well (IMHO).

I also find that you can get some pretty good DOF effects with the Fujinon
lens wide-aperture / zoom in than either the 170 or 200 can do without
a Letus or similar adapter. Lighting and proximity to subject may limit
your ability to do this on the 300 (however).

Further, if you're required to sync, there really aren't any options on either
the 170 or 200 to do anything other than DV sync in freerun. You may not
be able to get some gigs unless you can sync to timecode generators
and the 300 supports typical ones.

Then there's the image quality of both the full-raster sensors and the AVC
Intra 100 codec. IMHO, this is a major difference in image quality between
the two cameras, particularly if you do 1080. Both the 200 and 170 play
sensor games to get to 1080 and it shows. If all you do is 720p, may
not be an issue for you. The 4:2:2 colorspace of the AVC-Intra 100
codec adds a richness / subtlety that is marked.

If you do high-action shots (lots of quick pans), then skewing may be an
issue for you. For the shots we do, this has never been an issue for us,
even with some sports shots (hockey, etc). The predictive motion circuitry
did its job for us. If you do a lot of "run and gun" shots, the 300 may
not be for you.

There's also ease-of-use issues to consider. The 170/200 family is quite
a bit easier to operate since it has both auto-focus and auto-iris .. so
"point and shoot" is easier on the 170/200 .. although you're
trusting the camera quite a bit. The 300 is a more complicated camera
to learn and operate and takes some hours to get up to speed. There's
no auto-focus on the 300 (but that's a good thing :-) ).

For audio, the 170/200 come with on-board microphones where the 300
does not. However, you have many more audio options with the 300 than
you do with the 170/200 family. For example, you can run all four audio
channels on the P2 card with the 300. You also have a wireless slot on the
300 for a Lectrosonics (or similar) wireless system. We have the lectros
and they work extremely well with the 300. That allows us to run 2 channels
wireless and two channels shotgun / boom. In contrast, I don't know
many people that use the on-board mics on either the 170 or 200 for
any serious audio. [edit - i should clarify that you do have two XLR inputs
on the 170/200, so you're not limited to the on-board mics ]

If you get a 300, plan also to get either a wireless setup or a mounted shotgun
(or both) as well.

External monitoring options are different between the two cameras as well.
With the 170, you can monitor using either the component video
cable, DV (1394) or SDI. Some inexpensive small monitors can be used
(surprisingly, the Viewsonic N1630w does a great job for about $170) using
component video.

The 300 (on the other hand) supports SDI/HDI. It supports DV (1394)
only if you're using the DVC codecs .. and what's the point of that? So,
you'll need to get more expensive monitors (around 1K at the cheapest)
or get a SDI / to component or HDMI converter ($500 or so).

There are many more controls on the 300 than the 170/200 .. little things
you may not use at first, but come in handy from time-to-time (such as
the ability to bias the white balance temperature).

Lastly, since the lens is removable on the 300, you have options for lens choice
or rental for the projects you may encounter.

So ... having lived with both the 200 and 300 .. (and not the 170), I believe
the 300 will give you higher-quality results and allow you some room for
growth. The 200/170 family is what it is...

While most people bemoan the skew issue on the 300, my biggest complaint
is that low-light sensitivity still isn't where it needs to be on this camera
and we've had to get 5D's for that. But, all-in-all, it's a very good camera
at an excellent price-point (and that price-point appears to be getting
better all the time).

I would recommend you rent a 300 for the day and do some test shots and
see what you think. With batteries and accessories you'll plop down $10k
at least .. so a couple hundred bucks to make sure you know what you're
getting is a good thing. And I wouldn't do anything until NAB .. it's just
around the corner and some announcements may factor into your
calculus....

best wishes on your purchase,

jeff
 
Last edited:
hey. thanks to everyone. this is some great insight. ok, you've all got me sold on the 300 with an eye out for a used 170 as a second. Now comes the wait until the rumored 370 announcement. I kind of feel like i should just pull the trigger now while i can get the camera for 7595 U.S. then get 800 back in rebate and get the 2 P2 cards. any idea what happens to all these good deals once the new cam is announced? does it drive the rpice down further or is that just it and the focus switches to selling the new camera?
 
I have both and you can always tell the 300 footage to the 170.... just that little bit cleaner on the 300...

Although I must admit if I have to really run and gun.. I find the CCD's on the 170 outperforms the 300 Cmos picture...

Each have their place I guess..

Cheers
 
qatarshooter said:
hey. thanks to everyone. this is some great insight. ok, you've all got me sold on the 300 with an eye out for a used 170 as a second. Now comes the wait until the rumored 370 announcement. I kind of feel like i should just pull the trigger now while i can get the camera for 7595 U.S. then get 800 back in rebate and get the 2 P2 cards. any idea what happens to all these good deals once the new cam is announced? does it drive the rpice down further or is that just it and the focus switches to selling the new camera?
Click to expand...

Two 32Gig cards and a $800 rebate is certainly compelling. I wish I could
advise more precisely. It's one of those "door number 2" decisions that we
all face around NAB time.

jeff
 
Lez said:
I have both and you can always tell the 300 footage to the 170.... just that little bit cleaner on the 300...

Although I must admit if I have to really run and gun.. I find the CCD's on the 170 outperforms the 300 Cmos picture...

Each have their place I guess..

Cheers
Click to expand...

Hi Lez ..
Just to qualify your response .. is your experience tempered by 720
or 1080 formats between the two cameras?
jeff
 
I too have both and put them side by side.

I reckon the 300 is a bit cleaner, and sharper in all equivalent resolutions. It's also a fraco more sensitive.

To be honest having both may be the way to go for us, just a shame there is no cross-over with batteries etc.
 
Well, I pulled the trigger on the 300 tonight (its night here) and I'm a bit nervous. I had hoped to wait and see what the new offers from Panasonic were 370, but I got offered two gigs and I need the equipment. Its trial by fire will be a wedding and a basketball training video. When I got the wedding I really considered the JVC HM700 for the CCD end of things with shoulder mount but the Basketball video will be a 3 cam shoot with 2 200s so I wanted the footage to all be the same(ish). The wedding client wants mobile video so I wanted the shoulder mount for sure as I have shot handheld with a 200a plenty (thats what I use in my 9 to 5er) and never been thrilled with my handholding abilities. I ordered a Hytron 50 with it as I have steady acess to two others and a charger. Anyone know if this is a decent battery for this camera? Will it keep me going for an hour minimum or do I need to order a Dionic 90. Anyone willing to offer advice on any other must have accessories for this I would appreciate. I have a good tripod I am hoping cuts the mustard and I ordered the quick release plate. I am considering the letus adapter and then maybe adding the relay later. I have a good wealth of Nikon and Canon lenses as I already have two 5DMkIIs although I may just stick with them for the special shots until I feel the work warrents the cost. If anyone knows of a good quality used 170 up for sale in the future please give me a holler. I would like to get one for tight spots and work where the CMOS issues might be too big of a deal. Aside from that I am thankful for all of your input, I look forward to my purchase arriving. May all your cash flow in twice as much as it flows back out.
 
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