16mm filmmaking - Sync sound

W

WalkingRun

New member
How's it going? I'm making a 16mm short for my thesis film at New York Film Academy and I want to rent the equipment to record dialogue in my scenes. I have never synced audio to any film production and could use some advice from anyone who's gone through the steps already. What soundboard, mic, recording device, etc... Money is not an issue as I'm prepared to pay for only two days of rentals and I want the maximum level of sound quality. If you could help, I would greatly appreciate it.
 
I would recommend recording your audio to a field recorder like a Sound Device 702, if you have timecode capabilites they offer a timecode version of that recorder for a little more $. If you are using more than 1 mic at a time then also use a SD 302 field mixer.

As far as mics go it depends on interior or exterior recordings, different mics for different situations. Their are tons of post in the fourms about mics just do a search and you should find what you need.
 
TC is likley not an issue since your shooting 16mm. Are you finishing on 16mm? 16mm sound is awful (FYI) and you need to get someone who has done 16mm to do the mix because thee are a bunch of hoops to jump through.
AS for production SD recorders are good and probably rentable. DAT may be rentable, is a lot more work and not as good a quality but more than OK. Make sure to do proper slates on every shot since that is how your going to sync sound. So make sure to get a slate and snap those sticks on camera before every take.
Your in NY and there should be lots of sound people around who know what they are doing. I would get your sound person first and get what they like to work with.
And in case I didn't mention it Slate EVERY take.

Drop me an email if you want some advice on mixing if your finishing in 16mm.
 
WalkingRun said:
How's it going? I'm making a 16mm short for my thesis film at New York Film Academy and I want to rent the equipment to record dialogue in my scenes. I have never synced audio to any film production and could use some advice from anyone who's gone through the steps already. What soundboard, mic, recording device, etc... Money is not an issue as I'm prepared to pay for only two days of rentals and I want the maximum level of sound quality. If you could help, I would greatly appreciate it.
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You need to be specific; how are you finishing? I'm guessing telecine to video of some flavor(?) Certainly not on a 16mm sound projector? (if so, good luck!)

Clap at the head and tail. You can literally clap your hands in front of the cameras --no real need for a slate on a short if you are an organized person. Record normally despite the fps changes from the transfer; you can fix it in post. And make sure you're not using a noisy old Arri......

Best advice is Noiz2: Hire somebody. A fellow student who knows sound. Audio will make or break your film.
 
doesnt mater what you are recording on , but who you use to record it
most of your gear is more depend on your shooting style and framing
so if you need wierless mics more then 2 inputs on your recorder is quit depend on how you work .
for proper working and since t you shot with expencive footage hire good boom operator as it most important to be precice and not be in the frame .
as every shot that is garbage becouse the boom may cost you 100$ .
about recording gear - everything what exaptable for our buisness sound wise , it maybe dat recorder , compact flash one and if it doesnt have good mic pres use mixer in front .
microphones , depends on your location , use shotgun outside and hypers inside , or if you dont have allot of money work with cs-3 sanken or schoeps cmtor neuman 81 which can usially handle both wolds .
of course wind protection if nessery , long boom if you work outside .
car shotes , low door passege , high humidity , back ground moise and others change the preference for equipment .
to sync the stuff use regullar sticks , no need for tc slate .
the best is to go to working set and see how its done or use people who know how to doit .
 
Jacquot said:
...
You can literally clap your hands in front of the cameras --no real need for a slate on a short if you are an organized person. ...
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You can get away with that on video because you can keep track of the shots via timecode on the camcorder. In film you need the full slate or you have no way of tracking your shots. So it is important that you have something with the scene and take on it. Clapping your hands is probably OK for the sound portion of the slate but you have to be careful how you do that so you can get a visual that connects to the "pop". Two sticks or a clothes pin is a better cheat.
 
noiz, stop educate people , make them pay for their own mistakes and maybe next ime when it would cost them money they will start work in the film way :-)
 
Noiz2 said:
You can get away with that on video because you can keep track of the shots via timecode on the camcorder. In film you need the full slate or you have no way of tracking your shots. So it is important that you have something with the scene and take on it. Clapping your hands is probably OK for the sound portion of the slate but you have to be careful how you do that so you can get a visual that connects to the "pop". Two sticks or a clothes pin is a better cheat.
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I wouldn't know how to do it with video as I only use S16mm film. As I said, on a short you can get away with clapping *and* (as I said) if you are *organized.* All kinds of visual clues can work to identify takes (I've even written them down with pencil and paper as a one person crew and clapping while the camera's on a tripod and pre rolling the recorder with mic on a light stand/boom.) I've been doing it that way for years..... with shorts. Anything more than a short with minimal takes, then my Aaton's timecode, recorder's TC and slate are used; but when I have more people than just me. And a lot of my sound is wild; so it's no big deal for me to to add later.

That's why I ask the OP for more specifics about the short. And I suggested what you said: hire someone to do sound.

There's all kinds of ways to do things if you use your imagination. Look at the work of Ross McElwee and Johan van der Keuken. One person crews (or sometimes with a sound person.) Van der Keuken was one of my teachers before he passed away.

Each to their own and whatever works, I guess. :happy:
 
Jacquot said:
I wouldn't know how to do it with video as I only use S16mm film. As I said, on a short you can get away with clapping *and* (as I said) if you are *organized.* All kinds of visual clues can work to identify takes (I've even written them down with pencil and paper as a one person crew and clapping while the camera's on a tripod and pre rolling the recorder with mic on a light stand/boom.) I've been doing it that way for years..... with shorts. Anything more than a short with minimal takes, then my Aaton's timecode, recorder's TC and slate are used; but when I have more people than just me. And a lot of my sound is wild; so it's no big deal for me to to add later.


Each to their own and whatever works, I guess. :happy:
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Whatever works. But a short read of your post sort of reveals your going to a lot of trouble to avoid using something that has been working really well for a hundred years or so and costs $20 (or less if you make one). And as you point out you use a lot of wild sound, and the question was about sync sound.
 
Come on. Of course you want to use a slate, your editors will hate you if you don't. I don't think anyone on the planet who shoots film professionally would recommend against slating.

Slate it, you don't *need* to tail slate every shot, that burns film. But make sure your slate is clear and in focus.

My guess is your shooting S16, not 16. Then telecine-ing to HDCAM then possibly dropping to DV for your offline editing needs.

If you are finishing on film, you're then going to need them to give you your flex files with the telecine (which are files that import into AVID or FCP that keep track of your film edge code). But if you are shooting S16, you can't finish single source on S16, and if you are shooting 16mm, then I hope you are not finishing to a 16mm print with mono-optical sound that sounds like you're movie is coming through a telephone speaker.

Odds are you are finishing HD, or possibly SD. So make sure your SD tapes are either exact timecode dubs with BITC (Burned in Time-Code) that matches your HD, or make sure they do a a Simo at the telecine, dubbin to HD and SD at the same time (which can be more expensive, but guarantees frame accuracy more).

Audio can be a *****, and here's why you need to know if you are finishing film or HD before you shoot. If you are finishing film, then your target output goal is 24fps, i you are finishing Digitally, then it's 23.976.

If you are finishing film, then tell your sound guy to record the audio at TC 30. When you import your footage into your AVID or the like, you have to make sure that you capture into a 24fps project and reverse-the telecine, so that your audio and your film will both match temporally. If you decide to edit your film at 30i or 24p (29.97 flavors, basically) with matchback to film capabilities, then either you, or your sound people will have to perform an audio pulldown to temporally adjust the audio from 30 to 29.97.

If you are finishing digital, then have them record the audio at TC29.97 and capture the footage in at 23.98 or 29.97 and all should be fine.

Just remember, everytime you switch from a solid number to a fractional number, or vice versa, you're going to have to do that with your audio as well, via an audio pull up or pull down. If you use a system that keeps numbers the same, then you won't have to.

Hope this helps. As you can see, it's a fairly confusing process, and I highly recommend having an expert on hand so you don't jack up all your audio for your film.
 
zoostory said:
Come on. Of course you want to use a slate, your editors will hate you if you don't. I don't think anyone on the planet who shoots film professionally would recommend against slating.
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Come on. You didn't read my post correctly.

I never recommended against anything. But I've done work as I mentioned without slating. It can be done. And my editor (me) doesn't hate me. And, as I also mentioned, when I'm doing something more substantial than simple shorts, I use Aatoncode. And I don't need to worry about a slate (and the clap noise) which can be a real problem in the kind of work I do -- which is why I mentioned Ross McElwee and my former teacher Johan van der Keuken.

http://www.aaton.com/products/accessories/origin/realtimebible.php

It works when used properly, despite what people might say about it. And if you rejam every 3-4 hours or so, you can be slate free when necessary which is liberating. I also carefully keep track of takes, etc.. Just need to be organized.

Not everyone strives to be a technical perfectionist. USC is more known for technical prowess, but I went to a different school that was more cerebral. As I mentioned each to their own. There are many different ways to get results. That's what keeps the world interesting.
 
Jacquot said:
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Not everyone strives to be a technical perfectionist. USC is more known for technical prowess, but I went to a different school that was more cerebral. As I mentioned each to their own. There are many different ways to get results. That's what keeps the world interesting.
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FWIW, in my opinion compromised technique detracts from the final product no matter how brilliant the concept behind it. It's like reading an essay on philosophy that is full of spelling mistakes and grammatical errors - it makes me doubt the validity of the ideas the writer is trying to express. Sloppy comunication techniques expressing an idea means the mind behind it is equally sloppy in its thinking processes, making the ideas it produces suspect. The notion that art transcends technique is absurd because without technique there is no vehicle to carry the art and make it accessible.
 
Steve House said:
FWIW, in my opinion compromised technique detracts from the final product no matter how brilliant the concept behind it. It's like reading an essay on philosophy that is full of spelling mistakes and grammatical errors - it makes me doubt the validity of the ideas the writer is trying to express. Sloppy comunication techniques expressing an idea means the mind behind it is equally sloppy in its thinking processes, making the ideas it produces suspect. The notion that art transcends technique is absurd because without technique there is no vehicle to carry the art and make it accessible.
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Yeah, well. Jack Kerouac broke the rules with his novels. Thomas Vinterberg broke the rules with his approach to film. Pablo Picasso; Marcel Duchamp; René Magritte: Maya Deren; Chris Marker; Tsai Ming-Liang, etc.. Only a few well-known examples out of a list a mile long. It goes on and on throughout history, and in all mediums.

Some people like to experiment and innovate. Some feel safer following established paradigms. And, yes, being safer is usually more profitable in a market driven economy. But some of us have other reasons for producing our work besides money and notoriety.

Even mainstream Hollywood has experimented. But making an audience reflect and wonder can also make them uneasy. Hollywood films are somewhat like amusement park rides: there must be an enjoyable experience so that the audience will stand in line again for another ride. After all, profit driven production has its own agenda. And, yes, "experimentation" has its agenda, too.

Anyway my friend, we're not talking about "spelling mistakes and grammatical errors" and "compromising technique" or "sloppy communication."

We are talking about working with a medium that may sometimes take us outside certain conventions. And so be it.

Each to their own. :)
 
Somehow we've really veered off topic here.

I think it is our responsibility to talk about the best and "proper" way to do things - as the priority, then if there are DIY ways of doing things, append them to the post.

So, the best way to sync sound is to use a TC slate with a TC recorder (especially if you're going to have telecine sync your audio for dailies). You can get away with a non-TC slate, and even a hand clap. But, given that a non-TC slate is about $50, why not just get a slate and do it the right way and be more professional.

Also, if you are concerned about burning too much film, then a way to preserve film while slating is to follow this process:

1. Roll Sound
2. Call sound speed
3. Announce the shot (i.e. scene 2a take 2)
4. Roll camera
5. Mark (i.e. clap the slate)
6. Set and action!
7. Acting stuff
8. Cut. ;-)

The only reason to tail slate (btw, the proper way to tail slate is to clap the slate upside down) is if you miss the mark on at the beginning of the take.

Phil
 
Jacquot said:
YThomas Vinterberg broke the rules with his approach to film. Pablo Picasso; Marcel Duchamp; René Magritte: Maya Deren; Chris Marker; Tsai Ming-Liang, etc..
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Iconoclastic name-dropping aside, clapboard slating is a very simple and efficient proccess that has served countless filmmakers well, and is one of the more reliable ways to keep things in synch. Aatoncode can be a real time-saver, but I for one still prefer to have a slate as a backup.

I would add to Phil's description of head- and tail-slating that during a tail-slate, both the camera and recorder must continue rolling until after the upside-down slate is snapped. To expand on his "slating protocol", a tail-slate usually procedes as follows:

1. Roll Sound
2. Call sound speed
3. Roll camera
4. Set and action!
5. Acting stuff
6. Call "tail-slate"
7. Marker (i.e. clap the slate upside-down)
8. Cut camera
9. Announce the shot (i.e. scene 2a take 2 tail-slate)
10. Cut.
 
SMuir said:
Iconoclastic name-dropping aside, clapboard slating is a very simple and efficient proccess that has served countless filmmakers well, and is one of the more reliable ways to keep things in synch. Aatoncode can be a real time-saver, but I for one still prefer to have a slate as a backup.

I would add to Phil's description of head- and tail-slating that during a tail-slate, both the camera and recorder must continue rolling until after the upside-down slate is snapped. To expand on his "slating protocol", a tail-slate usually procedes as follows:

1. Roll Sound
2. Call sound speed
3. Roll camera
4. Set and action!
5. Acting stuff
6. Call "tail-slate"
7. Marker (i.e. clap the slate upside-down)
8. Cut camera
9. Announce the shot (i.e. scene 2a take 2 tail-slate)
10. Cut.
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I excel at cocktail time conversation hence the iconoclastic name-dropping. It's all fluff and no substance.

Anyway, with all that aside, I agree that the protocol as you have posted is "proper." We all learned it in film school and in working. However, it is **absolutely impossible** with type of work I do and therefore I must rely on Aatoncode or whatever works.

My initial posts were obviously never read. My very first response was to find out the OP's needs in relation to what kind of work they are doing. Not everyone is able (given the circumstances) to do it "right" whether they want to or not.

There are always more ways to skin the cat.
 
Jacquot said:
"
We are talking about working with a medium that may sometimes take us outside certain conventions. And so be it.

Each to their own. :)
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All of the experimental pioneers you mentioned were superb technicians first, THEN when they had matured to the point they could work to the rules in their sleep they could consciously and selectively break them. Break the rules to explore and advance the medium, absolutely! But all too often, "art" is just an excuse for sloppy workmanship, and in my experience most attempts at workarounds usually produce results that don't quite hit the mark.
 
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Deviations from the long-established standards in the craft of filmmaking should stem from necessity, not ignorance of the standards.

Slating technique is little changed from the days of early cinema. You should acquire an inexpensive chalk or acrylic slate and use it in each and every shot. It gives the editor the best possible tool for differentiating between one shot and another. Along with the good notes from your script supervisor, your post-production process will be simplified and streamlined.

We're talking about as little as $50 for you to do this right, and, as a bonus, you'll have a slate in your bag of tricks for the next one. And the one after that and on and on!

e
 
look some can shoot without veufinder and if it wouldt be in focus may create nice art .
the weel is round and from time to time someone reinvent it in differnt shape .
about hollywood and not only hollywood - films are buisness , the proper way save money time is money even noone pay you for it) so you can clap with your hands , put your willi on the table or bang the head into the wall that defenetly wouldnt save you from loosing money ,
sometimes there are extrim terms you must do it in not regullar way or go around but abd it abig but you do it only when you dont have any other choices .
 
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