128 GB P2 card in advertisement!

Walter_Graff said:
"To be honest, if the image quality of this camera exceeds the other HD options (meaning HDV, not CineAlt SR etc) with good chroma, color etc I'll buy this camera, as well as 2 p2 cards to begin. "

Just asking; will you have the ability to see the difference? Will you have a TV capable. Will anyone watching what you shoot do so too? All those lines are nothing more than standard definition on a standard definition TV. In other words it doesn't make a better picture on a regular TV. SO you are going to pay an awful to to make the same relative picture that you already can with a DVX100
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Good question. As a rule, especially when shooting on DVCPRO 50 or 100, we'll have a BT-H1700 HD monitor as well as a larger 20" SD for client to watch. And when shooting on 16mm or 35mm, they only get to see video assist....

Of course, film (especially 70mm) has more overall resolution than either HDCAM or anything else...doesn't matter if its getting dumped down to SD for broadcast. Still looked better to acquire in highest resolution format then dump down to BETA SP than just shooting on BETA SP. This is for many reasons obviously...optics and latitude being some reasons.

i would also say that shooting 720p on varicam looks better than shooting 480p on the 100. Doesn't matter if your not seeing the entire resolution from the vari right now. And if you shoot on a sony cinealt, and I bet the HD monitor you'll use on the set wont show the full 1920p image either....but, sort of like film, the resolution will be there later when you need it.

And to respond to the other post from mmm, problem with mpeg 2 is lack of info. DV is aweful to key or any thing else CG...can't see long GOP mpeg2 being better. I would assume encoding a DVCPRO HD 4:2:2 clip down to mpeg 2 would be better than shooting mpeg2, and then downconverting that again to mpeg2 with lower bitrates for distrubution.

One question I would ask about HDV is what sort of range does it have? What sort of latidute would one need to stay within before blowing highlights or losing shadow detail? I'm very curious about this.
 
mmm said:
Remember that interframe such as MPEG 2 is generally considered to be 4 times as efficient as intraframe. So take ProHD for example - 30p runs at 19 Mbit/s compared to 50Mbit/s for DVCPRO HD at 720p60. Under some conditions, the HDV codec will outperform DVCPROHD. I still think DVCPROHD is a better format, as it does offer 4:2:2 colour and intraframe has certain advantages when shooting and is smoother in the edit.

However, what will make the Panasonic a winner or not is the actual camera "front end" if you can call it that. I would prefer a decent picture recorded onto HDV over crap recorded on DVCPROHD anyday.

The end result and the cost is all that is important. Does the difference between HDV and DVCPROHD warrant all the extra cost (which is there at present). Will potential audiences know any different anyway? It would be an interesting test...
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Yes I agree....alot will depend on the head. But I keep imagining a 100a with 4 times the res and better chroma.....
 
mmm said:
Remember that interframe such as MPEG 2 is generally considered to be 4 times as efficient as intraframe. So take ProHD for example - 30p runs at 19 Mbit/s compared to 50Mbit/s for DVCPRO HD at 720p60. Under some conditions, the HDV codec will outperform DVCPROHD.
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Outperform in what way? Taking up less space? I don't care about the space, I care about the quality of the picture. Storage mediums and space limitations will only go up...
 
Haakon said:
Outperform in what way? Taking up less space? I don't care about the space, I care about the quality of the picture. Storage mediums and space limitations will only go up...
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In certain situations ProHD will have less compression artifacting than DVCPROHD. However, it will only ever have as much colour resolution. I would like to see a big screen comparison, but I should think that each codec could outperform the other in certain situations.
 
mmm said:
In certain situations ProHD will have less compression artifacting than DVCPROHD. However, it will only ever have as much colour resolution. I would like to see a big screen comparison, but I should think that each codec could outperform the other in certain situations.
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That's true. And in other situations, it's probably safe to say that they're just "different" as opposed to "better/worse."
 
Walter_Graff said:
Just asking; will you have the ability to see the difference? Will you have a TV capable. Will anyone watching what you shoot do so too?
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Hey, PlayStation will do the deal. It's HD capability will force people into buying big HDTVs ("Uuuuh, how much crisper will I look shooting those Irakies in HD?! Uuuuuh let's get one!!!")

Honestly, even in PCs - Games have always been the reason for better and faster ones. Not those twentyone videographers.
 
Walter_Graff said:
Don't hold your breath for this camera there are better things down the pike.
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Walter_Graff said:
Just asking; will you have the ability to see the difference? Will you have a TV capable. Will anyone watching what you shoot do so too? All those lines are nothing more than standard definition on a standard definition TV. In other words it doesn't make a better picture on a regular TV. SO you are going to pay an awful to to make the same relative picture that you already can with a DVX100
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Like Philip said: Playstation. But not only playstation... there are many computer games out there that have butt kicking graphics... kids (and video-gaming adults) are buying nicer screens with more than just size and refresh ratio in mind... pixel count is a factor for them too... What I'm trying to say is that the world won't stop turning, and it is turning faster than many think it is. My cellphone (Treo 650) has a 2.75" 320 x 320 pixel transflective display that does 65,000 colors. It is bright as hell, incredibly crisp and it has excellent balance and color saturation. That probably sounds a bit like squat again, but what I'm trying to say is that screen technology is blowing up and getting really cheap faster than most seem to realize... it may not be moving at the pace of storage, but it is mooooooving. We have a complete design, which seems flawless, to fabricate a 3D HD tv, and all it's parts allready exist, we just don't have the software that can merge the image of several dozen cameras into one stream... but we are almost there!
Ok, before I go off on any other tangents: HD is allready becoming "fashionable" to allmost all economic classes! They may not have it, but they know about it and they want it. I am seeing more and more often, on network TV, the same thing they used to do when the little graphic appeared for a few seconds saying "In Stereo where available" now saying "In HD where available". They are constantly reminding you, every game, after every commercial break, that you can get a better picture. That is the best possible marketing for HD. HD tv is going to be one of the main "I got it" things of the next two to four years. You know, first a few buy it and try it, then it gets cheaper and your neighbor buys one, then your kids nag that you have to get one... Then more content is HD and the price of HD content goes down...

The curve gets steeper.


This camera will allow many to start acumulating experience, and we all know all too well how saying that you've been doing something for a long time goes a long way.
Also, don't forget the firestore-type devices!!! Between P2 cards and the 80G Firestore-type devices, in my humble opinion, all types of productions are covered.

For 10k or less, what is coming out soon, and how soon is it comming out? Please tell me before I buy the HVX. Are you talking in a year? There is no doubt that better stuff will come out and eventually for a cheaper price tag... but not in the next year. Probably not in the next two! At least that is the impression I am under. I hope I'm wrong, but I hope I find out before February or so :engel017: .
 
Am I the only person who plays games (3d shooters and flight sims) at 640x480 (or 800x600 now that there's little support for lower resolutions)?

With the proper aliasing, this to me looks more realistic -- higher resolutions are too sharp for gaming.

It'll be cool when they can render DOF effects in real-time, but right now pixelation is a good substitute! :)
 
jamestmather said:
I am being glib about the ways of consumersim btw. I'm sure we'll pay whatever they want us to. That said, I hope that Panasonic, not to see P2 go the way of Betamax, opt to get prices to more managable levels asap.
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look people, panasonic is a reputable company that operates in the free markets here in the west. they operate like all companies on supply and demand. they are in business to make a profit and good for them. if someone can't afford these cards at first use the firestore option. but i am just sick and tired of all this whining about price. corporations exhist to make profits, supply and demand determine price, thats capitalism.
 
tco said:
look people, panasonic is a reputable company that operates in the free markets here in the west. they operate like all companies on supply and demand. they are in business to make a profit and good for them. if someone can't afford these cards at first use the firestore option. but i am just sick and tired of all this whining about price. corporations exhist to make profits, supply and demand determine price, thats capitalism.
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Yeah, but i believe the majority of the people on this board is here because they own a dvx, and really liked the camera. The dvx was revolutionary, and never added the problems P2 will cause to the same user searching for a solution in the level of a z1, a hd100 or a xl-h1. I say p2 is a problem mainly because of the cost. And if you think the firestore is a solution, I agree. Shame is, it's only coming in March (probably later, following focus past history). At that time, the z1 and the hd100 will probably be cheaper. More so, the canon would be already in the market for 5 or 6 months, offering what the hvx is offering, without compression, trough sdi. Maybe someone will come up with a portable solution for the xl sdi recording- why not even focus?

Bottom line is, the price of the p2 cards are unreasonable for the market of the prosumer. The prosumer is the indi filmmaker, the wedding videographer, the event coverage guy. THe big advertising companies and broadcast channels have budgets that afford hd-cams and bigger eng cameras. For example, the sony xd-cam will be sold at 19000 and has 2/3 ccds. there's also the Tompson new solution wich uses regular hard discs as storage. these are very competitive solutions and better than the hvx for these companies.
And you have to agree: the xl-h1 does seem like a run for the hvx's money... And they give you the option that, for $500, you get a universal camera!
 
Tzedekh said:
DVCPro HD at 720p60 has a data rate of, I believe, 100 Mbps.
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Your quite right, I mis-typed. I was refering to just 30p, I am too used to typing 720p60.
 
tco said:
look people, panasonic is a reputable company that operates in the free markets here in the west. they operate like all companies on supply and demand. they are in business to make a profit and good for them. if someone can't afford these cards at first use the firestore option. but i am just sick and tired of all this whining about price. corporations exhist to make profits, supply and demand determine price, thats capitalism.
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And we are their customers, with all the right in the world to complain if we think their products are over-priced or a bad idea. They have to meet OUR needs, that is what we pay them for.

This isn't an unreasonable complaint - for many shooters, P2 could easily double the cost of the camera. People say you will save a load of money because you don't have to buy tape, but if you plan on archining, which most people do, you'll have to dump to hard disk, 2 hard disks in RAID really for security - that ain't cheap. You could use DVDs, but that will be a real pain in the arse.

I do believe systems like P2 are the future, but they are not the present.IMO it is the worst part of the camera - Everyone is talking about cheaper workarounds! That is a very bad sign. If you buy a product, it should be appropriate for the job in hand. For many potential customers, P2 is NOT appropriate.

Technology should make things easier, this is yet another example of a step sideways - better quality, yes, but a pain in the arse.
 
For achiving you could purchase a dell tape backup drive for about 800 dollars and then be able to archive 32 gigs for 20 dollars (cost of tape)
 
smelni said:
For achiving you could purchase a dell tape backup drive for about 800 dollars and then be able to archive 32 gigs for 20 dollars (cost of tape)
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There are certainly ways of doing it, but if you are going back to tape, why not just shoot on tape. I would rather capture and watch my footage before editing than have to spend ages backing everything up during or after the edit.
 
smelni said:
For achiving you could purchase a dell tape backup drive for about 800 dollars and then be able to archive 32 gigs for 20 dollars (cost of tape)
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Don't forget about blu ray disk. It should start come out early next year at 50gb capacities with bigger storage like 100gb or 200gb to follow
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For sure, once Blu-ray is established and P2 cards are 64GB, it is a completely viable option... but we are looking at mid-late 2008! By then there is going to be a new generation of cameras coming out - I think P2 is still a generation ahead of itself.
 
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