10,000 Years Will Give You Such a Crick in the Neck

Hi Ryan,

I was more lurking when you were active all those years ago. I printed your 'Why We Need Light' series (https://www.dvxuser.com/threads/rpos-why-we-need-light-article-series.222080/) to learn more about everything. At the time it was way over my head but still really exciting to think someday I'd understand what the series.

I might have to revisit the article!

What projects are you working on? It looks like you were a career __AC for a long time but are now exclusively working as a Director of Photography?
 
rob norton said:
Hi Ryan,

I was more lurking when you were active all those years ago. I printed your 'Why We Need Light' series (https://www.dvxuser.com/threads/rpos-why-we-need-light-article-series.222080/) to learn more about everything. At the time it was way over my head but still really exciting to think someday I'd understand what the series.

I might have to revisit the article!

What projects are you working on? It looks like you were a career __AC for a long time but are now exclusively working as a Director of Photography?
Click to expand...
Hey!

Yeah I still both AC and DP. Obviously I enjoy both quite a bit. I'm glad you enjoyed the article series. I never finished it and I would love to revisit it. The reason I haven't is the explosion (for better and worse) of people doing their own Youtube tutorials and what not. Some are quite excellent, most are people who should still be students parading as seasoned experts. In many ways I was doing that when I wrote the article series to begin with so perhaps I shouldn't throw too many stones.

The AC work really allows me to learn a lot and also be very versatile in these strange days of the industry where work is a little more scarce. I can more quickly jump from project to another ACing, and there is less commitment on my part as an AC. For instance I could book two long term jobs with a slight overlap, and I can usually replace myself with another excellent AC. As a DP you have to commit more carefully because as a creative head, once you are on the project, you stay on the project, unless there is a death in the family or the job of a lifetime presents itself.

That said, DP is the goal as it always has. The thing is I don't get enough DP work to DP all the time. I enjoy being on set way too much and love making money way too much to not fill the gaps in my schedule. Especially these days when work overall has slowed down for everyone. I'll literally 2nd AC or load magazines if I don't have anything booked those days, because I just really like doing the work and being on set.

I've had the pleasure, and still do have the pleasure, of working with some of the best cinematographers out there so I can't complain as it again affords me a lot of observational experience. Not even so much as HOW to light or anything technical as I believe I have a lot of that down to a science by now.... but rather the politics of sets. By working on larger productions with great DP's I am still learning how to handle producers, AD's, avoid politics, play to the egos of actors, and other things. I know which hills to die on and which to surrender, so to speak. A lot of the job on the higher end of things is knowing how to work in those gigantic monsters of movie making machines. Because at a certain point, you have to be creative but also you need to lead an army. At a certain point I think the talents of creativity hit a ceiling and the DP's who are the best are the ones who know how to keep the wheels moving, doing it as good but faster and that really comes down to communication, leadership and preparation. No DP I work with on set hesitates or figures it out on the day. I've never served in the armed forces but sometimes I think the logistical nature of filmmaking has to be similar to the military except with lower stakes, obviously.

Otherwise I'm still working, based in Los Angeles. I just shot a test pilot as DP a few weeks ago. Looking for the next big project.
 
Alex H. said:
Good to see you back. What are you working on these days?
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These days? As a DP, I have a feature film finalizing a deal with a company that will distribute it. I can't post much about it until the ink is dry and I get some materials approved for sharing. I've also done a test pilot a couple weeks ago for a mockumentary I enjoyed working on. Otherwise I fill my schedule being a camera assistant since I'm pretty excellent at it and I'm really good and pulling focus. I get to work with some amazing people and it's always worth working.

Would like to find out what everyone here is up to. I met a lot of good people back in the day on here and I still talk to many of them. Matt Garrett, David Carstens, Timur Civan and others. I met them all here and I've worked with or had lunch with all of them within the last year.
 
Ryan Patrick O'Hara said:
Hey!

Yeah I still both AC and DP. Obviously I enjoy both quite a bit. I'm glad you enjoyed the article series. I never finished it and I would love to revisit it. The reason I haven't is the explosion (for better and worse) of people doing their own Youtube tutorials and what not. Some are quite excellent, most are people who should still be students parading as seasoned experts. In many ways I was doing that when I wrote the article series to begin with so perhaps I shouldn't throw too many stones.

The AC work really allows me to learn a lot and also be very versatile in these strange days of the industry where work is a little more scarce. I can more quickly jump from project to another ACing, and there is less commitment on my part as an AC. For instance I could book two long term jobs with a slight overlap, and I can usually replace myself with another excellent AC. As a DP you have to commit more carefully because as a creative head, once you are on the project, you stay on the project, unless there is a death in the family or the job of a lifetime presents itself.

That said, DP is the goal as it always has. The thing is I don't get enough DP work to DP all the time. I enjoy being on set way too much and love making money way too much to not fill the gaps in my schedule. Especially these days when work overall has slowed down for everyone. I'll literally 2nd AC or load magazines if I don't have anything booked those days, because I just really like doing the work and being on set.

I've had the pleasure, and still do have the pleasure, of working with some of the best cinematographers out there so I can't complain as it again affords me a lot of observational experience. Not even so much as HOW to light or anything technical as I believe I have a lot of that down to a science by now.... but rather the politics of sets. By working on larger productions with great DP's I am still learning how to handle producers, AD's, avoid politics, play to the egos of actors, and other things. I know which hills to die on and which to surrender, so to speak. A lot of the job on the higher end of things is knowing how to work in those gigantic monsters of movie making machines. Because at a certain point, you have to be creative but also you need to lead an army. At a certain point I think the talents of creativity hit a ceiling and the DP's who are the best are the ones who know how to keep the wheels moving, doing it as good but faster and that really comes down to communication, leadership and preparation. No DP I work with on set hesitates or figures it out on the day. I've never served in the armed forces but sometimes I think the logistical nature of filmmaking has to be similar to the military except with lower stakes, obviously.

Otherwise I'm still working, based in Los Angeles. I just shot a test pilot as DP a few weeks ago. Looking for the next big project.
Click to expand...
Thanks for sharing.

Has it been difficult marketing yourself as both at once? I know certain markets have difficulty viewing people with multiple skillsets, where singular crew positions can be mentally assigned for life. I did various grip assist/best boy work. I never made a career out of it, but even 5 years after turning down that type of work, I still got calls asking if I could jump on a shoot - I avoided BTS crew photos aka mini billboards on social media perpetuating the narrative I was trying to avoid! I know the LA scene is its own universe and I'm sure there's much more acceptance of many people working in many different capacities.

The "industry" seems like it's in a really grim position at the moment, so I'm glad you're staying busy and making money.

Speaking of old dvxusers, I was actually in LA before moving back to Australia. In 2011 I worked as a PA for a commercial that Tim Hyten (dvxuser slimothy) directed.

As for me, I'm now in the corporate space shooting/directing/editing, working directly with clients trying to provide as much value in the shortest amount of time as possible. I'm part owner in a film lighting van package, so I treat every corporate shoot as my own version of a shooting a commercial, but in reality 98% of my work has been me plus a Gaffer, with the occasional 1st AC. It's a lot easier getting trusted with bigger (for me) projects than it used to be, but video production is also not as valuable to everyone as it used to be. I'm trying to make sideways moves into the narrative space but also not fully convinced that'd be a wise permanent move.
 
rob norton said:
Thanks for sharing.

Has it been difficult marketing yourself as both at once? I know certain markets have difficulty viewing people with multiple skillsets, where singular crew positions can be mentally assigned for life. I did various grip assist/best boy work. I never made a career out of it, but even 5 years after turning down that type of work, I still got calls asking if I could jump on a shoot - I avoided BTS crew photos aka mini billboards on social media perpetuating the narrative I was trying to avoid! I know the LA scene is its own universe and I'm sure there's much more acceptance of many people working in many different capacities.

The "industry" seems like it's in a really grim position at the moment, so I'm glad you're staying busy and making money.

Speaking of old dvxusers, I was actually in LA before moving back to Australia. In 2011 I worked as a PA for a commercial that Tim Hyten (dvxuser slimothy) directed.

As for me, I'm now in the corporate space shooting/directing/editing, working directly with clients trying to provide as much value in the shortest amount of time as possible. I'm part owner in a film lighting van package, so I treat every corporate shoot as my own version of a shooting a commercial, but in reality 98% of my work has been me plus a Gaffer, with the occasional 1st AC. It's a lot easier getting trusted with bigger (for me) projects than it used to be, but video production is also not as valuable to everyone as it used to be. I'm trying to make sideways moves into the narrative space but also not fully convinced that'd be a wise permanent move.
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Oh what? I worked with Tim a couple times too around that time period as well. In 2011 we did a Redbull job on a mockup aircraft. I then went on to do a bunch of videos for an energy drink MLM (lol) company called Limu. Would be crazy if I met you on one of those.

To answer your question, its my philosophy that if someone can't see you as being acceptable for another role despite evidence or testimonials, then it's a 'they' problem and not a 'me' problem. So many DP's I work with have recognized my abilities and had me either step up to operate or shoot second unit for them, or recommend me to others. Many people will see the potential in you. A lot more than those who won't. Those who can't will be an unfortunate occurrence but it's a 'them' problem. Same goes for those concerned about if they will be hired for a discriminatory purpose. I'm not saying being viewed as being only an AC only is as bad as discrimination. What I am saying is if someone can't be open minded enough to recognize talent or potential in others, I don't lose sleep about not working with them.

I think your concern or question is MUCH more prevalent once you become a big enough name to have an agent. Then you need to worry about always being viewed as the "car commercial guy" or "the horror movie guy".... then it kind of becomes your job and your agents job to either lean into it and dominate that niche market or try very hard to diversify the type of jobs you take to avoid being seen as the "food commercial guy" or whatever you don't want to be pigeon holed as.

The only downside I can speak of, and it isn't a negative thing per se, is that I have lost some AC jobs because I shoot. But I'm not aware of any DP jobs I've lost because I also AC. I stopped getting calls from one DP I worked with years ago and when I ran into them they told me they had seen my instagram and everything I've been shooting so they assumed I'm not ACing anymore. Same goes for rates. I know a DP who always tells me he doesn't hire me because he can't afford me. I have to kindly remind them that I love ACing and if I'm available I'll always do it because I just love working and being on set. It's always good to make sure you are clear with your current DP clients that you're always there for them and to always let you decide if a rate is too small or not.

Yeah times are getting tough. More and more 2nd AC jobs are getting cut off budgets and even 1st AC's now. A lot of typical crews are downsizing into those traditional videographer two people and a van type jobs when it used to be a box truck and seven people, etc, etc.

A lot of the DP's I worked with pre covid have moved or have worked in markets I can't follow. My key advice is to always diversify who you work with because suddenly one day they just might move across the country, the world, retire, or switch gears and you always need some other irons in the fire because in todays world, the landscape is changing much faster than it was pre-covid.

I absolutely don't regret 1sting. I'm incredibly good at it and I have gotten to work with some of the most amazing DP's. I learn a lot from them and I struggle to really imagine how I would have learned all of that if I had just been DPing the entire time. I suppose some amazing gaffers could have spread the knowledge or perhaps I would have failed a lot more and learned from hard experimentation and failing haha. Who knows.

I've seen some people I've worked with shoot meteorically into the top of the industry and I've seen people just as talented continue to grind through the trenches with the rest of us. It really does seem a good attitude, hard work, and a lot of luck is the key recipe.
 
Ryan Patrick O'Hara said:
Oh what? I worked with Tim a couple times too around that time period as well. In 2011 we did a Redbull job on a mockup aircraft. I then went on to do a bunch of videos for an energy drink MLM (lol) company called Limu. Would be crazy if I met you on one of those.
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Lol!

I just had a look, it was promoting Red Bull Musketeers - Tuesday 6/7 2011", I think I remember seeing a different campaign that was for a paper aeroplane competition or something like that, which you might be referencing. I'm pretty sure it was shot on a panasonic gh1/stills lenses with DP (Bernard Evans) pulling focus while shooting.

And thanks again for the response, you've got a great balance across the different roles!
 
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