“RED’s Jim Jannard Retires & Shuts down HYDROGEN”

Hydrogen was doomed from conception because they didn't know what it was. A phone that's a camera? A camera that's sort of a phone but not really?
If you are going to be in the Apple/Samsung/LG space, you had better know exactly what you are and they apparently didn't.
RED seems to be a bit of a rudderless ship this year. They don't have a product problem, they have vision and strategic execution problems.
They have a muddled vision for where the company and product line are going and shelving a project like Hydrogen shows that they
probably wasted millions, if not tens of millions of dollars and man hours on something that will never really see the light of day.

Even though they are far from my favorite camera to actually use, I personally hope they stick around, more competition is always better for the marketplace.
Jannard will still be in Jarreds ear a lot I bet. Guys like him are never going to tune out. But he'll undoubtedly be out of the day to day more.
 
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puredrifting said:
... If you are going to be in the Apple/Samsung/LG space, you had better know exactly what you are and they apparently didn't...
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Red and BMD owe a major portion of their sheer existence to the cartel that let them in at the various price gaps. The problem is that - and there have been a number of studies about that - the lower tier manufacturers can establish a bridgehead and then expand upwards. For example, the South Korean giants Samsung and LG were making entry levels electronics in the 1980's. (Gold Star VCR's were a $200 gem) It's far rarer for the companies to enter at the high end and then try to win over the meat of the market.

In the camera manufacturing business, as in the electronics setting in general, the trends were always obvious. A product starts off at high price point and, by the end, becomes a commodity. Red makes some pretty decent products but their low-to-mid half is likely to be destroyed by C500 MKIII and FX-9, while Mini LF, specifically designed to compete against Red to begin with, will dominate the top pro end. And then Red will find it a very hard place to survive.
 
DLD said:
Red and BMD owe a major portion of their sheer existence to the cartel that let them in at the various price gaps. The problem is that - and there have been a number of studies about that - the lower tier manufacturers can establish a bridgehead and then expand upwards. For example, the South Korean giants Samsung and LG were making entry levels electronics in the 1980's. (Gold Star VCR's were a $200 gem) It's far rarer for the companies to enter at the high end and then try to win over the meat of the market.

In the camera manufacturing business, as in the electronics setting in general, the trends were always obvious. A product starts off at high price point and, by the end, becomes a commodity. Red makes some pretty decent products but their low-to-mid half is likely to be destroyed by C500 MKIII and FX-9, while Mini LF, specifically designed to compete against Red to begin with, will dominate the top pro end. And then Red will find it a very hard place to survive.
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Yep. And it’s not just electronics. Who would touch a Hyundai in the 90’s? Below dirt-cheap, crap econo-boxes that were the butts of countless car jokes*. Now look at them. Vehicles that people actually want to drive with some starting at almost $70K.


*One of my favorites was from Married with Children when the car wash “lost” Al’s car and offered to replace it. Car wash manager, “How does a new Hyundai sound, Mr. Bundy?”. Al, “Like an old lawnmower”.
 
The Hydrogen clarifies how hard it is to enter a market - any market. There are so many factors involved in making a successful product, it is a toss of the dice every time. Having a hit with Oakley and Red is a remarkable accomplishment that few achieve.
 
The hubris of the hydrogen one was astonishing. I don't give RED much of a thought ever, I'm not a "hater." But I also have to be honest that I'm having a little bit of schadenfreude. An excerpt from Jim Jannard's update over the summer:

"We remain committed to taking care of our customers the best way we can given all the circumstances. To that end, every HYDROGEN One owner will get significant preferential treatment for the HYDROGEN Two and/or new Cinema Camera model, both in delivery allocations and pricing."

What a company. We failed, but don't worry everyone, we will make up for it by giving you preferential treatment in buying the next one. Sound good? You know what nvm it's all cancelled not my fault buhbye.
 
Run&Gun said:
... *One of my favorites was from Married with Children when the car wash “lost” Al’s car and offered to replace it. Car wash manager, “How does a new Hyundai sound, Mr. Bundy?”. Al, “Like an old lawnmower”.
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Datsun B210 was a lot worse.

And forty years later, a browser's spellchecker doesn't even recognize the word "Datsun".
 
DLD said:
Datsun B210 was a lot worse.

And forty years later, a browser's spellchecker doesn't even recognize the word "Datsun".
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Lol. I don't think it was a 210(too young to remember details like that), but my Dad bought a little two door Datsun something-or-another in the early 80's after he gave up on his Saab(Lord only knows how often that thing broke down and had to be towed). It was a compact, two-door, straight drive with an engine that sounded embarrassing, even to a little elementary school kid(I'll never forget the sound, I can still recall it and hear it in my head to this day). I used to laugh every time he hit the accelerator, because it sounded so funny. And the icing on the cake: it was BROWN. I hated that car. Fast forward to today and he's still driving the Ford Ranger he bought my first year of high school.
 
Straw Man said:
What a company. We failed, but don't worry everyone, we will make up for it by giving you preferential treatment in buying the next one. Sound good? You know what nvm it's all cancelled not my fault buhbye.
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The part that you're ignoring is that when Red's screwed up in the past, it HAS been generous to its customers on future cameras.

It was because of that that I and I don't know how many others got a $10,000 discount on a Red Epic-W...
 
Tamerlin said:
The part that you're ignoring is that when Red's screwed up in the past, it HAS been generous to its customers on future cameras.

It was because of that that I and I don't know how many others got a $10,000 discount on a Red Epic-W...
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There is one gentleman here who was burned after buying an EPIC. Due to the imminent announcement of F5/F55, RED slashed the price of EPIC brain by half. This guy had bought barely a month earlier and lost some 25K+. Good companies protect such customers. Giving discounts in a future purchase is not the same.
 
I always believed that RED didn't understand what it was getting into as far as hydrogen project was concerned. I have personally worked in a mobile manufacturing set up and understand how tough it is. It can be done though. For example, some ex-Nokia employees started HMD global and handle the sales and marketing. They have licensed the technology from Nokia for 10 years and foxconn is manufacturing the phone. The hydrogen was a premium phone with supposed features for future integration with cameras etc. One needs fair amount of knowledge about the tech as well as people to put through a team who can handle such a complex phone project. Hydrogen had a premium pricing unlike the RED One providing 4K resolution at a cheaper price. So it is not easy to defend when the phone quality was not upto the mark. May be hydrogen program would have worked better as an add on program. So you get a hydrogen phone free with each red camera that you buy. Or say just charge 100 dollars if you are a red camera owner. So people will not complain about the price. And later once RED would have ironed out the flaws they could have slowly moved up.

Given the ip battle brewing between Apple and RED, I guess there may be some pressure on hydrogen as well. I believe Apple will include raw video in its phone soon. The amount of money apple has at its disposal to do research, it would be tough for others.
 
Their reasoning on Hydrogen was pretty simple - the mobile market is far larger than a professional video camera market and Apple is making a 100% markup on every phone. And Red has a built-in fan base already. I happen to think they were correct in that there is no high end mobile phone with 4K/6K sensor, Raw/Log and all the other professional features included without the need to download a divergence of apps.

But they didn't do it right. And then they blamed others.
 
Not saying it is a "wrong" way to go about it, but why make any announcement at all regarding your retirement and not just retire without announcing it? Especially since in this case the announcement comes on the heels of some rocky developments for RED and potentially adds to the perception that RED is in trouble? It potentially makes it seem as if even the founder wants out of RED because of the recent issues. As if the founder is "walking" out on his own company in disgust or in fear of the legal issues.

No PR firm would ever recommend "Seeing as you've taken some hits of late to your reputation and people are wondering about the stability of your company, what I suggest is that the founder announce he is stepping down and at the same time you announce that the company is bailing on a product line."

If you are the person with RED charged with maintaining confidence in RED, the owner announcing he's done and the announcement that a major product is being abandoned is a nightmare for you. It makes it look like the wheels are coming off RED and the captain is abandoning ship leaving the crew to go down with her. "I'm outta here, boys. Good luck bailing water."
 
JPNola said:
Not saying it is a "wrong" way to go about it, but why make any announcement at all regarding your retirement and not just retire without announcing it? Especially since in this case the announcement comes on the heels of some rocky developments for RED and potentially adds to the perception that RED is in trouble? It potentially makes it seem as if even the founder wants out of RED because of the recent issues. As if the founder is "walking" out on his own company in disgust or in fear of the legal issues.

No PR firm would ever recommend "Seeing as you've taken some hits of late to your reputation and people are wondering about the stability of your company, what I suggest is that the founder announce he is stepping down and at the same time you announce that the company is bailing on a product line."

If you are the person with RED charged with maintaining confidence in RED, the owner announcing he's done and the announcement that a major product is being abandoned is a nightmare for you. It makes it look like the wheels are coming off RED and the captain is abandoning ship leaving the crew to go down with her. "I'm outta here, boys. Good luck bailing water."
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It's a little odd also, considering, that Jim had already essentially stepped away and made Jarred the de facto public face of RED and handed the 'day-to-day' over to him years ago, anyway. At least that was the perception. So why make a public show out of more or less just making it "official"? Was it just so people could publicly pat him on the back?

I'm with JP, if the company is in-trouble, if only perceptually, it seems like the last thing you would want is for the founder and original public face of the company to seemingly be distancing himself from it purposefully, especially considering no one really considered him part of the day-to-day operation of RED anymore, anyway. Even with the Jinnitech dust-up, most of the flack seemed to be flying towards Jarred, not Jim.
 
The Red bubble is bursting and Arri, Canon, Panasonic and Sony are already ahead so I can't see any reason why someone would want to buy a Red camera these days. Even the smaller Kinefinity, Z-cams and BM looks like much better alternatives.
 
I would be careful about pronouncements that the end is near.
No one has a crystal ball and Chicken Little had a history of getting into trouble with statements like that.

A lot depends on Kimodo. They should be getting back to more affordable roots. That was the original concept.
They hit the ceiling for their strongest selling point, resolution.
No one is going to want a 16K camera for the foreseeable future.
So the only alternative direction is down, towards selling greater quantity in the lower tier market.

The trick is reliability and quality relative to the price point.
Which in many ways is more challenging...and more competitive.
 
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yoclay said:
I would be careful about pronouncements that the end is near.
No one has a crystal ball and Chicken Little had a history of getting into trouble with statements like that.

A lot depends on Kimodo. They should be getting back to more affordable roots. That was the original concept.
They hit the ceiling for their strongest selling point, resolution.
No one is going to want a 16K camera for the foreseeable future.
So the only alternative direction is down, towards selling greater quantity in the lower tier market.

The trick is reliability and quality relative to the price point.
Which in many ways is more challenging...and more competitive.
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Agreed. That's one thing all of us can attest to, this industry is completely and utterly unpredictable. Often things happen that seem to make zero sense, yet they occur.

I would not count RED out, they have quite a reputation in the industry and there are plenty of DPs who prefer RED over shooting with anything else. REDs have been used on more higher box office Hollywood content than
any other camera short of Arri and possible Sony. 2019 has been a rough year for RED and they need a re-alignment and decisions about strategy and how to best execute it, but I would not count them out yet.
 
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