OTHER: Looks like a new FX camera is on the way

cyvideo said:
The wishful thinking of the hopeful make me smile. Generally speaking a global shutter has too many trade offs compared to modern rolling shutter cameras.. A couple are, #1 the loss of a stop of dynamic range. Like 1 stop between the F5 and F55, and #2 noise. That is why Sony opted NOT to go with a global shutter on the Venice. The Venice 2 has a rolling shutter of 3.3ms. Virtually indiscernible. When it can't be seen or sensed in normal filming, including fast action it's not really a problem. And the ARRI 35? It delivers a rolling shutter of 7.9ms in 3:2 4608×3164 open gate mode. And that camera, the 35 is probably amongst the most sought after cameras in the serious motion picture world. That's why virtually nobody complains about rolling shutter on the FX6. It's barely an issue at between 7.7ms and 8.7ms depending on frame rate.

Rolling shutter performance is very low, on my needs list, 1/10 of 'must haves'. But dynamic range? It's a 10/10 on the list. No competition. I need dynamic range and the quietest image on nearly every shoot. Global shutter? I can't remember when it was an issue in my work, and that has covered a lot of high speed motor sport.

For really top class stills shooting of very high speed action for freezing a frame then. Like a golf ball leaving the tee? Then yes, a global shutter is still king.

Chris Young.
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I also found a global shutter to make very little impact on my work as well.

I just recently sold my Komodo OG. I know that one of the things that made it unique and was a strength of that system was the global shutter. But it was something that just didn't show up in the type of normal corporate stuff I normally do.

I'm sure there's a perceptual limit to seeing the impact of a rolling shutter, as you noted Chris. I do think it's good to know what a camera's rolling shutter actually is, but in practical application it's not something too many people really need to worry about.
 
DustinSchmidt said:
I also found a global shutter to make very little impact on my work as well.

I just recently sold my Komodo OG. I know that one of the things that made it unique and was a strength of that system was the global shutter. But it was something that just didn't show up in the type of normal corporate stuff I normally do.

I'm sure there's a perceptual limit to seeing the impact of a rolling shutter, as you noted Chris. I do think it's good to know what a camera's rolling shutter actually is, but in practical application it's not something too many people really need to worry about.
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Are you planning on ordering the fx5, Dustin? The release is turning into something of a sh*t show for Sony...
 
scorsesefan said:
Are you planning on ordering the fx5, Dustin? The release is turning into something of a sh*t show for Sony...
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I was leaning pretty heavily toward getting one back when they launched. But I was also going to wait until the FX5 was actually shipping before I made any final decisions.

Looks like I'll have more time to figure it out.

I am definitely debating if I need to do anything at the moment when it comes to new gear. I've started to sell off older stuff that wasn't getting used as much and honestly it feels good to slim things down with my kit. Not to mention the additional cash from selling the gear.

Right now I think it makes more sense to have more money in the bank rather than another camera. Time will tell.
 
DustinSchmidt said:
I was leaning pretty heavily toward getting one back when they launched. But I was also going to wait until the FX5 was actually shipping before I made any final decisions.

Looks like I'll have more time to figure it out.

I am definitely debating if I need to do anything at the moment when it comes to new gear. I've started to sell off older stuff that wasn't getting used as much and honestly it feels good to slim things down with my kit. Not to mention the additional cash from selling the gear.

Right now I think it makes more sense to have more money in the bank rather than another camera. Time will tell.
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Good thinking. Unfortunately, I sold my fx6 rather impulsively and put in my fx5 pre-order. The lack of info from Sony is infuriating. I work for a Japanese company and I do think it is part of their culture to not disclose inside information or to assign blame. Saving face is very important. I do think Sony does owe the public an explanation beyond a vague "QC issues". This whole boondoggle has me considering going with a Canon c50 or r6v, but I really do like what Sony has done with the fx5, especially the IQ improvements...
 
scorsesefan said:
Good thinking. Unfortunately, I sold my fx6 rather impulsively and put in my fx5 pre-order. The lack of info from Sony is infuriating. I work for a Japanese company and I do think it is part of their culture to not disclose inside information or to assign blame. Saving face is very important. I do think Sony does owe the public an explanation beyond a vague "QC issues". This whole boondoggle has me considering going with a Canon c50 or r6v, but I really do like what Sony has done with the fx5, especially the IQ improvements...
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Look. I think it's worth hanging on if you can. It's good Sony is doing its FX5 revamp now, not later. It will be a better camera for it when deliveries start. As you say, in IQ it really looks like it delivers. Worth waiting for I would suggest. (y)

Chris Young
 
scorsesefan said:
Good thinking. Unfortunately, I sold my fx6 rather impulsively and put in my fx5 pre-order. The lack of info from Sony is infuriating. I work for a Japanese company and I do think it is part of their culture to not disclose inside information or to assign blame. Saving face is very important. I do think Sony does owe the public an explanation beyond a vague "QC issues". This whole boondoggle has me considering going with a Canon c50 or r6v, but I really do like what Sony has done with the fx5, especially the IQ improvements...
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I think blackmagic/komodo x or possibly zcam are your only choices in this price bracket, at this point. They’ll give you the IQ you want, and you have a chance of dealing with the shortcomings. Vs. you have zero chance of letting IQ shortcomings slide, which will be apparent in the c50, then eventually also the fx5.
 
cyvideo said:
Look. I think it's worth hanging on if you can. It's good Sony is doing its FX5 revamp now, not later. It will be a better camera for it when deliveries start. As you say, in IQ it really looks like it delivers. Worth waiting for I would suggest. (y)

Chris Young
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Yeah, definitely hanging in. Also, who knows if Sony will increase prices - at least I’m locked in price wise. Did you see they just increased the price of the fx6 from $6998 to $7298? Crazy given Blackmagic lowering their prices
 
scorsesefan said:
Yeah, definitely hanging in. Also, who knows if Sony will increase prices - at least I’m locked in price wise. Did you see they just increased the price of the fx6 from $6998 to $7298? Crazy given Blackmagic lowering their prices
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The old capalist credo, "Charge what the market will bare." With the FX6 Sony hit the sweet spot between mirrorless and bigger camcorders making it a very versatile tool for many shooters. I know for me it has worked flawlessly with everything from Primes to, with my adaptions, B4 lens for sports and stage entertainment coverage. It's a bit of a Swiss Army Knife. The FX6 is a camera that has hardly been emulated by other manufacturers so if you need what it offers you pay what the asking price is as there are few other options. And none of those have a variable eND filter. Sony's eND is probably one of the main reasons the FX6 is still a top seller. Sure it has its annoying shortcommings but performance per $$$ it's still up there.

With little competition in its form factor I guess Sony will push up the prices on any of its top sellers, including their lenses to keep up with inflation. If you take infaltion into account the FX6 was released in 2020 for $5,999 which in today's inflation adjusted money is $7,739 so it is still cheaper at today's new asking price $7,298 than it was at release. The Sony FX3 came out in 2021 for $3,900. In today's money that is $4,805. The FX5 on BH Photo is listed at $4,898. So efectively it's the same price today as an FX3 was in 2021. For a camera that is a quantum leap forward in many areas. Sensor, X-OCN, AI Auto Focus., etc. etc.

Not that it the best lens but look at Sony's evergreen 28-135 mm F/4.0. Not a glamour but it delivers and still keeps selling and that came out 12 years ago at $2300. I think it list is now $2999.00Which when adjusted for inflation should be $3,244.00. So it's a case of cheaper today that it has ever been. Sony wil have well and trully recovered its development and tooling costs over those 12 years but cannot afford to sell at a loss so will adjust for infaltion. For what we get these days for the $ I'm not complaining.

Chris Young

Inflation:

https://www.in2013dollars.com/us/inflation/2021?amount=3900
 
scorsesefan said:
I don't disagree with you but the problem is most people's wages have not kept up with the rate of inflation.
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Agreed. The same here in Aust. I really fear for our younger two ever buying a property. The Sydney median house price is now over AU$1,7 Million (US$1.25 Mill). And where we are situated in Sydney it's way higher than that.

https://property.carto.au/sydney/house-prices/chart

And for sure there is no way wages have gone up percentage wise anywhere near the cost of housing, rent and groceries, fuel etc. So yes. So I 100% totaly take your point. But in some regard it is sort of relevant. My first house, just out of Sydney cost us AU$24K in the early '70s. In 1986 my first SP Betacam BVP-70 with a BVV5 SP dockable rcorder and a 14 x Fujinon lens cost me just on $75K. About what our house was worth in '86. My camera kit was a massive loan to service. Totally freaked out my better half when I told her I was going ahead with the camera purchase.

But there was certain relativity and workable harmony to life back then. The average wage here was about AU$450. I was able to charge AU$1,200 a day with a full SP kit, plus an additional wide angle lens and a set of Red Heads. If you could average 3-4 days a week you were doing okay. The rest of life and daily living costs were quite affordable.

Those days have totally disappeared. I'm very happy to not be starting out today. But relatively speaking cameras and kit are cheaper than they have ever been. It's the cost of everything else that's killing us. Since this %$*&# war started in the Gulf our petrol and diesel prices have gone through the roof.

Australia, like America is a large piece of dirt and millions of tons of freight are shipped by road using diesel. I see today's diesel prices in the US are around $5.50 a gallon. And knowing your US gallon is 16 oz vs 20 oz against an imperial gallon that sounds totally crazy.

Here's to better times and sorted out FX5s. :D (y)

Chris Young
 
cyvideo said:
Agreed. The same here in Aust. I really fear for our younger two ever buying a property. The Sydney median house price is now over AU$1,7 Million (US$1.25 Mill). And where we are situated in Sydney it's way higher than that.

https://property.carto.au/sydney/house-prices/chart

And for sure there is no way wages have gone up percentage wise anywhere near the cost of housing, rent and groceries, fuel etc. So yes. So I 100% totaly take your point. But in some regard it is sort of relevant. My first house, just out of Sydney cost us AU$24K in the early '70s. In 1986 my first SP Betacam BVP-70 with a BVV5 SP dockable rcorder and a 14 x Fujinon lens cost me just on $75K. About what our house was worth in '86. My camera kit was a massive loan to service. Totally freaked out my better half when I told her I was going ahead with the camera purchase.

But there was certain relativity and workable harmony to life back then. The average wage here was about AU$450. I was able to charge AU$1,200 a day with a full SP kit, plus an additional wide angle lens and a set of Red Heads. If you could average 3-4 days a week you were doing okay. The rest of life and daily living costs were quite affordable.

Those days have totally disappeared. I'm very happy to not be starting out today. But relatively speaking cameras and kit are cheaper than they have ever been. It's the cost of everything else that's killing us. Since this %$*&# war started in the Gulf our petrol and diesel prices have gone through the roof.

Australia, like America is a large piece of dirt and millions of tons of freight are shipped by road using diesel. I see today's diesel prices in the US are around $5.50 a gallon. And knowing your US gallon is 16 oz vs 20 oz against an imperial gallon that sounds totally crazy.

Here's to better times and sorted out FX5s. :D (y)

Chris Young
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Yes, and to your point gear has become much smaller and more accessible to the masses. An original AVID system was upwards of 50K if I remember correctly. I live in NYC and rentals and homes are ludicrously expensive in just about every neighborhood. Average rent is about $3700usd here...

I do hope Sony sorts this out soon...
 
Bassman2003 said:
the 🎵 "perfect camera"
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That guy's videos are entertaining, especially when he says "uh oh..." after realizing something on camera, like talking himself out of something he's already bought.

scorsesefan said:
$3700
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Look at it this way: Sony's new 7" monitor for your FX5 only costs 1... month of rent. Oh, and don't try to cheap out and get the DP5 either, by the time you move all the on-screen display info to the black borders surrounding the image, it will be too small to pull focus on.
 

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hamburger said:
That guy's videos are entertaining, especially when he says "uh oh..." after realizing something on camera, like talking himself out of something he's already bought.


Look at it this way: Sony's new 7" monitor for your FX5 only costs 1... month of rent. Oh, and don't try to cheap out and get the DP5 either, by the time you move all the on-screen display info to the black borders surrounding the image, it will be too small to pull focus on.
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You would think they'd have an option to overlay the OSD. My c70 even has this option...
 
scorsesefan said:
I don't disagree with you but the problem is most people's wages have not kept up with the rate of inflation.
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How do wages come into it for freelancers? No one with a salary job is buying an fx6, unless they’re trying to make both worlds work.

I know you’re likely referring to rates as a whole, but it’s also a strange time. Last year I did a project with the highest rates I’ve ever charged and used an r52. I guess the knowledge to use the smaller, faster tool made up part of that rate. Unless you’re in the 1%, hoping the phone rings, then providing rates, is currently the worst place to be, especially for any below the line crew members, who don’t have much room to move from their market’s range.

For my projects at the moment, camera equipment hasn’t come up once and it’s a great place to be.

Did anyone actually take issue with your fx6 work? I think if we’re the only ones unhappy, but the clients are completely satisfied, then the issues might not be worth worrying about.
 
rob norton said:
How do wages come into it for freelancers? No one with a salary job is buying an fx6, unless they’re trying to make both worlds work.

I know you’re likely referring to rates as a whole, but it’s also a strange time. Last year I did a project with the highest rates I’ve ever charged and used an r52. I guess the knowledge to use the smaller, faster tool made up part of that rate. Unless you’re in the 1%, hoping the phone rings, then providing rates, is currently the worst place to be, especially for any below the line crew members, who don’t have much room to move from their market’s range.

For my projects at the moment, camera equipment hasn’t come up once and it’s a great place to be.

Did anyone actually take issue with your fx6 work? I think if we’re the only ones unhappy, but the clients are completely satisfied, then the issues might not be worth worrying about.
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Hey, Rob. I don't do any production work any more. I was laid off from my full time TV job in the 2008 recession and the pandemic pretty much killed the freelance work I was getting and shortly after that I got long Covid and my health hasn't been the same since. At this point I hold a part-time "regular job" (non-film industry) and work on my own documentaries which were always the most important thing to me anyway. When I mentioned wages and inflation I was referring generally to the working population not just the film industry.
 
I’m so sorry, I know you’ve mentioned it here over the years but didn’t realise it’s still impacting you today :|.

I hope you enjoy the format of the regular job - don’t take work home, no 10pm texts asking about light stands, being able to go to the bathroom whenever you want!

That’s great you can still work on your own projects. Chasing our own ideal camera combos is a perfectly valid hobby, albeit frustrating and expensive. I literally have 50 tabs open of lens tests - it’s a problem, but we all enjoy it deep down!
 
Thanks, most of the symptoms are gone except the fatigue and shortness of breath which are a PITA when you're lugging equipment. With my documentaries I work at my own pace and try to choose subjects that are a match for my stamina. I also have good days and bad days but three years on it's hard to believe I'm still affected by this. I'm pretty luck as there are a lot of LC sufferers who have been permanently disabled... Yeah, I just work at a bookstore PT which is pretty chill. I honestly don't miss the pressure of doing broadcast work, but I did like the crew camaraderie and watching your work on TV or whatever... I love keeping up with gear but it does become a bit of an obsession especially when I'm between projects like I am now...
 
scorsesefan said:
Yes, and to your point gear has become much smaller and more accessible to the masses. An original AVID system was upwards of 50K if I remember correctly. I live in NYC and rentals and homes are ludicrously expensive in just about every neighborhood. Average rent is about $3700usd here...

I do hope Sony sorts this out soon...
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I was running a Media 100 system back in 2000. The Sydney Olympics took place in 2000. We had just won a production contract for work on that. Upgrade time it was. It was a toss up between Avid and Discreet edit* for us. I went with Autodesk's edit* as it had the option of running with the realtime Truvision hardware card in conjunction with an Abakus 3D hardware DVE card. We also had Combustion running on that suite. That was a $100,000 lease back then. But it paid for itself in 18 months. edit*, with our five machine digital edit suite plus Paintbox, CG, 10 input switcher and BVE 2000 controller were all pretty cutting edge back in 2000. Those were the days. The whole online suite with an experieced editor was billing out at AUD$650 an hour. We also had three offline suites running. We were doing a regular 50 TV shows a year. That was truly a golden era.

Those days seem like they were in another lifetime. Well, I guess they were.

That $3,700 rent you mention. Is that a month or week? Sounds insane for a week. For a month that sounds sort of what I would expect. The last house that went up for rent in our street went for just over AUD$6,000.00 a month, US$4,300.00. Totally insane. I don't know how people are doing it.

Chris Young
 
cyvideo said:
I was running a Media 100 system back in 2000. The Sydney Olympics took place in 2000. We had just won a production contract for work on that. Upgrade time it was. It was a toss up between Avid and Discreet edit* for us. I went with Autodesk's edit* as it had the option of running with the realtime Truvision hardware card in conjunction with an Abakus 3D hardware DVE card. We also had Combustion running on that suite. That was a $100,000 lease back then. But it paid for itself in 18 months. edit*, with our five machine digital edit suite plus Paintbox, CG, 10 input switcher and BVE 2000 controller were all pretty cutting edge back in 2000. Those were the days. The whole online suite with an experieced editor was billing out at AUD$650 an hour. We also had three offline suites running. We were doing a regular 50 TV shows a year. That was truly a golden era.

Those days seem like they were in another lifetime. Well, I guess they were.

That $3,700 rent you mention. Is that a month or week? Sounds insane for a week. For a month that sounds sort of what I would expect. The last house that went up for rent in our street went for just over AUD$6,000.00 a month, US$4,300.00. Totally insane. I don't know how people are doing it.

Chris Young
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That’s per month and for a one bedroom apartment not a house ;)
 
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