Canon R6 mk2

DLD said:
And soon 400 MPX photos. Allegedly.



Presumably, the new version doesn't.
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The upcoming rumored huge firmware update was another factor in my decision. That combined with the delayed potential R5 mk2. It suddenly made the R5 much more viable of an option and some of the rumored features are those found on the R6 mk2. So whatever I might have gained from the R6 mk2 I might now get on the R5.

Another factor was Atomos just released the update for R6 mk2 external raw and someone tested it and was not super impressed. I think their impression was flawed but at the end of the day I started to wonder if it was really worth it. On the R5 I can still do 5k raw which is cropped but turns it into one heck of a 5k s35mm camera. More importantly I can now do raw without farting around with a Ninja V if I don't want to. Having a raw camera shooting with a small internal battery and a tiny Cfast card is such a breath of fresh air after rigging up a beast of the P4k the past couple of years. It will be a bit liberating to just have fun with raw and use it randomly just for the heck of it and not have it turn into a giant production. I mean the micro HDMI is suddenly not that big of a deal again for me. I do wish Canon raw was handled better in FCP but oh well. I'm fine converting it first if I have to. I'm not even sure how often I will use the raw.
 
The R5 uses CFexpress (B) - but, IIRC, I think you can shoot some of the lower compressed/light versions of RAW using the SD card slot.
 
Thomas Smet said:
R5 apparently does much better now with over heating. It can still happen but it's supposed to be even better than it is on my R6. Thats why I want two Canon bodies however. Just in case. I think most FF cameras shooting 4k have the potential to overheat. It all depends how far they push the limits. This is why m43 was always a step ahead. Much less heat and much easier to move to more advanced formats.

Honestly it is what it is and I have learned to accept it and keep a backup around. Now that backup doesn't have to be a P4k for me.

No mods for me. I will use it as is and if it overheats switch to the R6 until the R5 cools down. Both shooting 4k HQ will be great together. If I have to shoot 8k or raw well then I'm SOL. I don't shoot a lot of long continuous shots anymore and if I need to well both cameras still stop every 30 minutes anyway. Thats what my Ninja V is for which also gives me a easier to manage 5k cropped raw option from the R5 for continuous recording.

Either way I'm covered now and no longer have to worry about it.
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I’m filming an educational documentary where I’m moving between classrooms capturing short clips of interactions. The program runs for 4hrs. What I’ve found the camera builds up heat just being on regardless whether you’re filming or not, even with the lcd off it consumes a lot of power. After a couple of hours it begins to over heat. Not a deal breaker but annoying to have to be careful how long the camera can be on. These camera manufacturers are quite stupid not including a fan or not designing the cpu better to not run hot even when not filming.
 
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NorBro said:
Just wondering, did you change the heat setting in the menu from its factory default?
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Yes. The setting does help because when I first got the camera and was poking around the menus for an hour the camera shutdown on me without that setting on.

Let's be honest this is an intentional cripple, engineers know thermally without any active cooling these cameras will over heat. Heck all my camcorders despite not generating much heat have fans because what would benefit of even leaving a small chance it could over heat in professional gear?
 
Sony has been overheating cameras for years, but everyone's getting less cartel-y as we move forward (they have no choice).
 
NorBro said:
Sony has been overheating cameras for years, but everyone's getting less cartel-y as we move forward (they have no choice).
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Active cooling is a "feature" only availiable in the FX line. Only the camera industry would they knowing design electronic devices to over heat. Come on were being too hard on them fans are expensive high tech item. Throttling back the cpu when not filming that's too complicated.
 
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Before joining DVXuser and hearing leading man, DLD, with his supporting cast, NorBro & company, yell at the top of their lungs, you'd never be talking like that, lol.

Even just a few years ago many would defend and say they had no room for fans or any type of cooling.
 
NorBro said:
Before joining DVXuser and hearing leading man, DLD, with his supporting cast, NorBro & company, yell at the top of their lungs, you'd never be talking like that, lol.

Even just a few years ago many would defend and say they had no room for fans or any type of cooling.
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We had to endure the years of speculation why the 30 minute limitation existed. It was the European tax code...but why would that apply to the rest of world? Maybe it was done to prevent over heating but then why did all cameras over heat precisely after 29min 59sec seems like an arbitrary time? Besides it be too difficult to design a camera with a fan... looks suspiciously at the Panasonic S5II.

Wouldn't it be fun to remove all the fans from these camera executives computers and tell them they need to shut them down every 30 minutes to let them cool?
 
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Peter C. said:
We had to endure the years of speculation why the 30 minute limitation existed. It was the European tax code...but why would that apply to the rest of world? Maybe it was done to prevent over heating but then why did all cameras over heat precisely after 29min 59sec seems like an arbitrary time? Besides it be too difficult to design a camera with a fan... looks suspiciously at the Panasonic S5II.

Wouldn't it be fun to remove all the fans from these camera executives computers and tell them they need to shut them down every 30 minutes to let them cool?
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I used to think it was because it costs more to manufacture multiple versions of the same camera based on region but I don't really know.

As for a fan I'm just not sure it was always possible without being bulky, ugly or loud. Over heating and record limit does not impact every user the same as it impacts you. So it becomes a is it worth doing sort of thing and will it benefit enough users to be a big deal.

Again the users here have different needs vs the other 95% of people that buy these cameras. Just because its a feature we need doesn't mean thats true of everyone.

I personally question how well a fan even works. I mean if a camera is on the verge of over heating I'm not sure blowing air is enough to prevent that forever. It likely still will over heat at some point. A fan just helps bring the temperature down a little bit buying a little bit more time. The fan is not the solution here. The solution is to find a way for FF to not generate this much heat. Smaller sensors are much better here and unfortunately physics get in the way the larger the sensor is. The S5 II has a clever little heat exhaust above the lens but we have yet to see how well that will help. That helps get some of the heat out of the body where it's usually trapped but we know from opening a tiny window in 110 degree weather that only gets you so far. Same with turning on a ceiling fan. At some point you churn air around but it doesn't really help a lot.

Think of the monster fans in some computers and how loud they can get. Do we really want that in our compact DSLR like camera bodies? This is by the way why larger format cameras are created. Not just for physical buttons but it's much easier to handle heat and more space to do stuff. A compact camera can only go so far. with zero room on the inside to get heat out.

I live in AZ where I'm screwed either way. I think m43 is the only format that will not die here. With that said I do use my R6 outdoors here during the summer in small bursts and so far it's been fine. This is again why I want two bodies. Its the only sure way to get around this without turning a camera into a weird beast.
 
If you don't think a little fan could have much impact. Disconnect the cpu cooler fan in your computer. (don't actually do this) The cpu will over heat fairly quickly. Most devices that have fans either run continuous at a low rpm or ramp up when needed. CPU fans have been around for over 50 years. This isn't anything new. No electrical engineer would have over looked the thermodynamics of such a device. I understand you might not want to believe the company you have spend thousands of your hard earned dollars on would intentionally sabotage a product they are selling you.

For me I can get around it. Like I said I'm using diy heat sink but can you imagine if the computer companies did the same thing? Do you really need to run your computer for more than 30 minutes continuously? One of the main reasons the camera companies did so poorly when smart phones became popular was they were used to having their customers put up with anything because they had no choice. When consumers were given a opportunity to get a more convenient device that could take comparable images they naturally left. Companies that rely on their monopoly hurt consumers and in the long run themselves.
 
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Peter C. said:
If you don't think a little fan could have much impact. Disconnect the cpu cooler fan in your computer. (don't actually do this) The cpu will over heat fairly quickly. Most devices that have fans either run continuous at a low rpm or ramp up when needed. CPU fans have been around for over 50 years. This isn't anything new. No electrical engineer would have over looked the thermodynamics of such a device. I understand you might not want to believe the company you have spend thousands of your hard earned dollars on would intentionally sabotage a product they are selling you.

For me I can get around it. Like I said I'm using diy heat sink but can you imagine if the computer companies did the same thing? Do you really need to run your computer for more than 30 minutes continuously? One of the main reasons the camera companies did so poorly when smart phones became popular was they were used to having their customers put up with anything because they had no choice. When consumers were given a opportunity to get a more convenient device that could take comparable images they naturally left. Companies that rely on their monopoly hurt consumers and in the long run themselves.
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Well of course it will. I'm talking about a tiny fan in a camera and not a dedicated fan roaring like the wind in a computer. You need some rather high RPMs and a large size to push enough air to have a huge impact on heat. How can you fit fan blades large enough for a handheld sized camera? How can you keep the fan noise in check and yet run fast enough to push enough air to have an impact?

I never said it doesn't help. I said its not a 100% solution. The R5c has a pretty decent size fan and it can add some noise but do we really want every DSLR like camera to get that bulky? We need something more like the size of the Canon C70 to really manage heat well and thats only a s35mm sensor which generates less heat. I don't know what the over heating is like on the R5 C but I'm going to assume in hot environments like the furnace I live in that fan only helps so much.

If you want to see cameras compact and light be careful what you wish for. There is only so much a fan can do in the space left inside these tightly packed cameras.

As you know fans also get faster as the components heat up. How much noise do you want your camera kicking off when it gets really hot out? It's better to design cameras to not need a fan if at all humanly possible. The fans are a little crutch to get over a limitation and should not be the norm. I don't want to see camera design get lazy and just slap on monster fans to make up for a lack of innovation.
 
The Panasonic S5ii is the same size as the R5, R6 - have been able to film all day 4k 10 bit whereas with R6 it would overheat after about 40 minutes. Am sure the fan is doing a pretty decent job
 
There are several ways to handle heat.

1) Use less heat producing/more modern chips. Those cost money but a $4,000 camera should be able to fit those in its price quite easily.

2) Make a bigger heat sink. That costs money but a $4000 ... uh, see above.

3) Run cooling fluid through the hot parts. That requires a specific design to accommodate the tubes for the said fluid. Which would cost money and .. see above.

4) One could redesign the boards and spread the heat generating parts around, use ample amounts of heat paste and add numerous heat sinks. The same ideas as above apply and, on top of them, it'd cost time and money.

5) Increase the body size, add vents , etc. ... which really wouldn't cost much.

As to R5, Canon, obviously, crippled its own product due to an agreement with the cartel. Two years after the fact, the piece operates far longer and far better than it did upon introduction. It is still hot but that's to be expected with 8K. The subsequent models are likely to beat R5 across the board. Watching a YouTube clip on overheating with Sony cameras - A7RV does 4K 60fps until its battery dies (or about an hour and a half). A1 only lasts 46 minutes in full frame and 49 in a center crop. This is likely to the more advanced processors running cooler than a previous generation. Canon will likely follow the same trend.
 
Thomas Smet said:
Well of course it will. I'm talking about a tiny fan in a camera and not a dedicated fan roaring like the wind in a computer. You need some rather high RPMs and a large size to push enough air to have a huge impact on heat. How can you fit fan blades large enough for a handheld sized camera? How can you keep the fan noise in check and yet run fast enough to push enough air to have an impact?

I never said it doesn't help. I said its not a 100% solution. The R5c has a pretty decent size fan and it can add some noise but do we really want every DSLR like camera to get that bulky? We need something more like the size of the Canon C70 to really manage heat well and thats only a s35mm sensor which generates less heat. I don't know what the over heating is like on the R5 C but I'm going to assume in hot environments like the furnace I live in that fan only helps so much.

If you want to see cameras compact and light be careful what you wish for. There is only so much a fan can do in the space left inside these tightly packed cameras.

As you know fans also get faster as the components heat up. How much noise do you want your camera kicking off when it gets really hot out? It's better to design cameras to not need a fan if at all humanly possible. The fans are a little crutch to get over a limitation and should not be the norm. I don't want to see camera design get lazy and just slap on monster fans to make up for a lack of innovation.
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They make quiet small fans. There are blower style fans that fit in the slimmest laptops. Last time I checked camcorders are small and they have fans. Have you ever heard of a computer or laptop that would over heat? No, because they could never get away with it. Like I've said the Panasonic S5II has a fan and no over heating issues or complaints over the noise. So I guess it's possible to put a fan in without redesigning the whole camera. If fans were a noise problem why would Sony put them in their professional FX line? Reason Panasonic released a hybrid with a fan is because they don't have professional cine line to protect and were in sales trouble so they pulled out all the stops to make S5II as appealing as possible to compete. The real answer to all this is the camera manufactures favorite way to differentiate dedicated video cameras from hybrid cameras is have some sort of time limit. Whether it's software encoded like that past 29.59 minute or in this case let the camera over heat and don't design any active cooling.

45 cents for a fan
https://www.aliexpress.us/item/32568...andl_shipto=US
 
R5 pixel shift upgrade has come out.... to sour reviews. No Raw, suitable for only Canon's own editing app and lacks frame interpolation that Panasonic has had for several years. Maybe R5MKII will have all of the above.
 
DLD said:
R5 pixel shift upgrade has come out.... to sour reviews. No Raw, suitable for only Canon's own editing app and lacks frame interpolation that Panasonic has had for several years. Maybe R5MKII will have all of the above.
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I don't put much faith in such features anyway. Especially when we already have 45 MP on the R5. I get it has some use cases but I already found the 20 MP on my R6 more than enough in most cases. I'm just not a fan of cropping photos to get extra reach. I mean I can already kind of do that with Gigapixel anyway if it's an absolute must. Plus since these don't work well with moving subjects its always very limited in its potential use.
 
Thomas Smet said:
Plus since these don't work well with moving subjects its always very limited in its potential use.
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Panasonic in S1R and Sony A7RV interpolate frames. Not enough to film Formula 1 at close range but reasonably advanced in general sense. The problem there is that the shooter has no further options, such as getting double the rez off four shots or triple off nine. On Sony, it's a color correction off two and then fourX rez of sixteen. On stationary subjects - landscape, interiors, product - it works pretty well.

My feeling is that Canon has been working on this for a while .. but mostly for the upcoming R5MKII. Then it decided to release it on the original for the heck of it. Give people something for nothing and they won't complain. But the updated model will have faster and more energy efficient chips and a capability to interpolate.

Now, if R1 ever comes out, with a 75 MPX sensor and the pixel-shift mode, one would get a resolution of a super-high end professional medium format camera.

Or a stock Samsung Galaxy Ultra.
 
DLD said:
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My feeling is that Canon has been working on this for a while .. but mostly for the upcoming R5MKII. Then it decided to release it on the original for the heck of it. Give people something for nothing and they won't complain. But the updated model will have faster and more energy efficient chips and a capability to interpolate.
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It's plausible. Try to milk a few more sales before you render it obsolete.

Like Sony's new zv-e1 which uses the a7siii sensor and is much cheaper. That suggests to me that an a7siii successor is forthcoming. Or maybe not, since they waited a long time between the a7sii and a7siii.

Back to pixel shift -- there's a longstanding theory that only Panasonic gets to have a strong implementation of it and everyone else gets the cripple hammer
 
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