Panasonic finally puts phase-detect AF on a mirrorless: the S5iiX

[Thomas Smet]

Stop spreading this misinformation about ef lenses not working on the S5mk2 using AF for video...

Sorry this is in response to Thomas
Both quite annoying but go check out Toneh Northrup and Kai W reviews for examples of the Sigma MC-21 adaptor working well with ef lenses

It's not misinformation. Its how it used to be and how the description is still listed for the MC-21.

If that changed via firmware at some point I can't possibly be expected to keep up with every single piece of tech news under the sun for a camera system I don't own. As of a year ago it still did not work so why don't you just go ahead and sue me for not knowing some obscure piece of information that has since changed.

There is a decent way to communicate without getting annoyed and aggravated. Maybe try explaining how that has since changed and provide links to show that it has changed.

 

[ade4all]

Sorry I meant Tony and Kai are a bit annoying not you. Am on my phone and a bit of a luddite how to link to YouTube videos.
Also apologies if ive come across as rude wasn't intentional - but you've mentioned numerous times in this thread something that isn't true regarding the S5mk2 and ef lenses

 

[Thomas Smet]

Sorry I meant Tony and Kai are a bit annoying not you. Am on my phone and a bit of a luddite how to link to YouTube videos.
Also apologies if ive come across as rude wasn't intentional - but you've mentioned numerous times in this thread something that isn't true regarding the S5mk2 and ef lenses

Thats how it once was. There has not been any notice other than a few reviews that continuous AF now works. In the past that was not the case. Not even sure if thats true of the older cameras yet or not. It might be a capability only the new S5 II has and Panasonic finally addressed that limitation.

It's awesome if it does now work with the new camera. It may be too little too late for me however since I already invested in another system. I'm slowly replacing all my EF lenses. A year and a half ago I would have been all over this.

 

[Tom Roper]

If the intention is to go all in 60p why not get a Sony A7S3 or a Canon R6 mk2 which can do FF full sensor 4k60? Both have very good AF as well. I'm not sure what lenses you have but you do know you will have to buy native L mount lenses to use for video AF? If you already have a P6k I'm going to assume you have EF lenses which will adapt but the video AF will not work at all. You could really get the original S5 and save some money if you don't need the AF. Image quality wise they are pretty much the same. The only thing the new S5 sensor added was the phase detect points.

Just seems interesting to buy a camera that will require new lenses when you have lenses that can adapt very well to Sony or Canon.

The A7S3 is a lovely camera but $1500 more, the R6II $500 more. The S5II has DR on par with the Sony, I think R6II is still untested at this point, but the Panasonic is easily the best value all else being equal.

There are two ways to look at the S5II 4K60 crop mode; a missing FF feature or focal length multiplier. As a multiplier it aligns with P6K and U12K, as a 5.7K FF it aligns with P6K and GH5 resolutions. S5II color science aligns with GH5 and GH5S.

As as a fit for my workspace, The ZV-1 is what I primarily intend to replace for gimbal, my opinion it's sub-standard for pro video work; can look decent under the right conditions. My EF lenses are good but they are already spread between the P6K and U12K. Remember I'm using these in multicam situations that also suggest similar focal lengths, so EF's are already spoken for.

I don't intend for the S5II to be a primary cam. I only need a couple lenses for the gimbal, the kit zoom and the 35mm f/1.8 prime. For the P6K and U12K I also use a EF-35mm f/2.0 IS. In S35 this focal length gives a useful "normal" length as 50mm for FF. When I want to backpack into the wilderness, the gimbal can stay behind, S5II is going to be more convenient than the P6K and the FF/S35 choice a force multiplier. The 20-60mm kit zoom and the 35mm f/1.8 prime add only about $900 to the package. As for adapters, I am with Peter C 100%, not keen on them for a new camera.

As for the S5, I would not consider that for the same reason I would not consider the GH6, pulsing autofocus. Never again.

 

[NorBro]

This has to be the year for a new Blackmagic camera...it's been so long.

FF, BM, FF. :evil:

 

[Peter C.]

This has to be the year for a new Blackmagic camera...it's been so long.

FF, BM, FF. :evil:

and PD AF and image stabilization. I've heard it will be released soon.

 

[Tom Roper]

This has to be the year for a new Blackmagic camera...it's been so long.

FF, BM, FF. :evil:

Which lens mount?

 

[NorBro]

KineMount...the Australians went to Sizzler with the Chinese in late December and are very close to a deal...

lol. just playing. all new cameras from outsiders will be RF by default, there is no other consideration at this time.

but not a bad idea...

 

[Thomas Smet]

The A7S3 is a lovely camera but $1500 more, the R6II $500 more. The S5II has DR on par with the Sony, I think R6II is still untested at this point, but the Panasonic is easily the best value all else being equal.

There are two ways to look at the S5II 4K60 crop mode; a missing FF feature or focal length multiplier. As a multiplier it aligns with P6K and U12K, as a 5.7K FF it aligns with P6K and GH5 resolutions. S5II color science aligns with GH5 and GH5S.

As as a fit for my workspace, The ZV-1 is what I primarily intend to replace for gimbal, my opinion it's sub-standard for pro video work; can look decent under the right conditions. My EF lenses are good but they are already spread between the P6K and U12K. Remember I'm using these in multicam situations that also suggest similar focal lengths, so EF's are already spoken for.

I don't intend for the S5II to be a primary cam. I only need a couple lenses for the gimbal, the kit zoom and the 35mm f/1.8 prime. For the P6K and U12K I also use a EF-35mm f/2.0 IS. In S35 this focal length gives a useful "normal" length as 50mm for FF. When I want to backpack into the wilderness, the gimbal can stay behind, S5II is going to be more convenient than the P6K and the FF/S35 choice a force multiplier. The 20-60mm kit zoom and the 35mm f/1.8 prime add only about $900 to the package. As for adapters, I am with Peter C 100%, not keen on them for a new camera.

As for the S5, I would not consider that for the same reason I would not consider the GH6, pulsing autofocus. Never again.

I hear you. Thing is a camera capable of full sensor 4k60 can still also crop if you want the extra reach. The Canon R6 mk2 has been out a few more weeks than the S5 II has been so I would say both are equally untested or tested as much.

The S5 II is very impressive however. I was super close to getting a S5 over the R6. If the S5 II would have been out at the time my decision would have been made. I rarely shoot 60p but it is nice knowing I can get the same look for 60p as I can for 24p.

$500 is a lot to save however. I for one would hold out for the S5 IIX which is $2,200 so only $300 less than the R6 mk2. I do want the better recording formats and external raw.

Just out of curiosity what lens would you get for the S5? Only bring that up because some native lenses cost less than RF lenses and some cost more.

 

[Thomas Smet]

Oh I see Sigma has their killer APSC set of primes for L mount now. I had the EF-M mount version of the 30mm f1.4 and it was a stunning lens. Equal if not better than the Leica/Panasonic 25mm f1.4 m43 lens.

If one had to use the APSC crop for 4k60p there are at least some really darn good primes from Sigma and very affordable as well. The 30mm is only $264.

 

[Thomas Smet]

I might be crazy enough to get this and a 85mm Panasonic and 35mm Panasonic for $3k vs a R6 mk2 for $2,500. Add in the adapter now that I know it finally supports continuous AF on EF lenses with the new body. That way I can use my Tamron 24-70 and 70-200 f2.8 G2 zooms and pretty much be covered for now.

My Ninja V is limited to 30p anyway so in terms of external raw 5.9k 12bit from the S5 II will be a bit better than the 6k 10bit raw from the R6 mk2. I heard somewhere the sensor readout pumping out that fast has to drop to 10bit. Not sure if thats true or not. I would think 6k 24p could readout faster and use 12bit but if it cannot then the S5 could have a nice advantage there. Plus the 14+ stops vs 12+ stops of the R6. Clog3 is also pretty noisy with a good part of the stops above 11 buried in noise.

One thing I do not miss from Panasonic however is that darn HDMI delay. It's apparently pretty bad on the S5 II like 1/2 a second. Always drove me nuts on my GH4. Never noticed a delay on my R6 and the P4k has zero delay. Not sure how I feel about going back to that delay if I plan on using the Ninja V.

 

[ahalpert]

To be fair you are right I saw the TC video I was surprised af works on an EF lens. .

Does it work like a native lens or does it just kinda sorta work?

 

[ahalpert]

One thing I do not miss from Panasonic however is that darn HDMI delay. It's apparently pretty bad on the S5 II like 1/2 a second. Always drove me nuts on my GH4. Never noticed a delay on my R6 and the P4k has zero delay. Not sure how I feel about going back to that delay if I plan on using the Ninja V.

Is there any possibility here of usb-c monitoring and would it make a difference?

 

[Bob Loblaw]

and PD AF and image stabilization. I've heard it will be released soon.

I think we will see some kind of substantial AF improvement in new Blackmagic cameras. It’s really the only feature they lack against the competition. If they don’t address this then it would be a huge mistake.

Gyro stabilization data is the only stabilization Blackmagic will ever offer. You can’t have both IBIS and internal ND filters, which is why Sony’s FX6 & FX9 lacks IBIS and only has Gyro stabilization data as well.

 

[ade4all]

I might be crazy enough to get this and a 85mm Panasonic and 35mm Panasonic for $3k vs a R6 mk2 for $2,500. Add in the adapter now that I know it finally supports continuous AF on EF lenses with the new body. That way I can use my Tamron 24-70 and 70-200 f2.8 G2 zooms and pretty much be covered for now.

My Ninja V is limited to 30p anyway so in terms of external raw 5.9k 12bit from the S5 II will be a bit better than the 6k 10bit raw from the R6 mk2. I heard somewhere the sensor readout pumping out that fast has to drop to 10bit. Not sure if thats true or not. I would think 6k 24p could readout faster and use 12bit but if it cannot then the S5 could have a nice advantage there. Plus the 14+ stops vs 12+ stops of the R6. Clog3 is also pretty noisy with a good part of the stops above 11 buried in noise.

One thing I do not miss from Panasonic however is that darn HDMI delay. It's apparently pretty bad on the S5 II like 1/2 a second. Always drove me nuts on my GH4. Never noticed a delay on my R6 and the P4k has zero delay. Not sure how I feel about going back to that delay if I plan on using the Ninja V.

Ha that's quite a turn around. I'm actually in the same boat as you with an R6 and contemplating the R6ii or this S5ii.
The R6 is a very frustrating camera - the overheating is bad, RS terrible, DR poor, micro HDMI criminal and touchscreen turning off when you dare connect a monitor to this flimsy HDMI is a classic Canon cripple hammer. Also 30 minute recording limit is a pain. But it does create nice image, has decent AF and lots of cheap EF lenses that work well with an adapter. The R6ii sorts out the overheating and 30 minute limit and RS to some extent but not the poor DR, micro HDMI and I can't find any info on if the touchscreen turns off with external monitor but I don't trust Canon so presume it's still an issue
Other than HDMI lag (which is hard to spot on the R6 as touchscreen turns off anyway) the S5ii pretty much sorts out all the niggles I have with Canon and it's £780 cheaper too in the UK - plenty of money left over for buying used Sigma adaptor and one or two of the excellent Panasonic 1.8 primes. I trust Panasonic more than Canon to give their camera decent firmware support and make it the best camera they can. Decisions decisions...

 

[ade4all]

The other big plus with the Panasonic at least for me is the IBIS. I do a lot of handheld documentary type stuff and after using Panasonic cameras the Canon R6 IBIS was pretty disappointing. It looks like the S5ii has improved on it again and it's pretty liberating to be able to quite often do away with a tripod and capture smooth steady footage from many angles very quickly. With decent AF this would be a great combination for my style of shooting

 

[Thomas Smet]

Ha that's quite a turn around. I'm actually in the same boat as you with an R6 and contemplating the R6ii or this S5ii.
The R6 is a very frustrating camera - the overheating is bad, RS terrible, DR poor, micro HDMI criminal and touchscreen turning off when you dare connect a monitor to this flimsy HDMI is a classic Canon cripple hammer. Also 30 minute recording limit is a pain. But it does create nice image, has decent AF and lots of cheap EF lenses that work well with an adapter. The R6ii sorts out the overheating and 30 minute limit and RS to some extent but not the poor DR, micro HDMI and I can't find any info on if the touchscreen turns off with external monitor but I don't trust Canon so presume it's still an issue
Other than HDMI lag (which is hard to spot on the R6 as touchscreen turns off anyway) the S5ii pretty much sorts out all the niggles I have with Canon and it's £780 cheaper too in the UK - plenty of money left over for buying used Sigma adaptor and one or two of the excellent Panasonic 1.8 primes. I trust Panasonic more than Canon to give their camera decent firmware support and make it the best camera they can. Decisions decisions...

I was frustrated with the R6 at times as well. It’s amazing how much Panasonic always got right when it came to video. Not just specs but the entire user experience around a camera that can shoot video. The kind of stuff you don’t usually get in a review or data sheet.

all these cameras have their frustrations. The lack of full sensor 4k60 is a bummer and likely a bigger impact on creativity than the micro HDMI port or the LCD shutting off with a monitor attached. Frustrations are just that. Minor annoyances but matter little where it actually counts. I think that’s why I tend to look past most of those frustrations now and mostly enjoy shooting with the R6.

The R6 mk2 fixes most of my biggest frustrations. It even now allows custom dial modes for video and the aperture and shutter priority modes. The micro HDMI is there still along with the LCD shutoff when sending the display info through HDMI. As far as I know at least. But those are not really issues for me since I only use an external Ninja V for recording. I get a clean output to the Ninja and the LCD still works. I also use the joystick to move the AF point instead of tapping the LCD so I wouldn’t miss the camera LCD much anyway. I use a a cage and HDMI adapter clamped to that dinky port to solve that frustration. Still frustrating but it doesn’t hold me back.

I always loved the S5. It was an almost buy for me over the R6. I was literally a button click away from choosing it over the R6. In the end the AF and EF lens support for video won me over. Plus Canon has really good color out of the box.

The S5 II now solves both those issues and a magnificent camera. Always was magnificent as a body. Just lacked the lens support for me at the time. I always felt Panasonic made the darn near perfect mirrorless FF bodies. It was the lens mount I hated. Still not crazy about it but now that EF lenses work great for video this opens up a whole new path for many users. I don’t think one should use adapted EF lenses forever but it creates a sensible path to try out Panasonic and gradually buy into L mount glass. I still think the resale potential for L mount lenses will suck compared to EF or RF but whatever.

I will say the rolling shutter is greatly improved on the R6 mk2. Almost twice as fast as before and puts it up there with the fastest FF cameras. That’s a huge update from the R6.plus the 40fps burst mode which makes it one heck of a sports photo camera. The S5 is pretty slow. Some reviews measure 21ms and others 26ms. 26ms is only a bit faster than the R6 first generation. With that said 14 stops of DR is a nice trade off for that. It’s kind of a pick what matters more to you situation. If you don’t move a lot quickly or shoot fast subjects the S5 might make more sense. If rolling shutter bothers you then the R6 mk2 might make more sense. DR can be compensated for with lighting and 12 only shows it’s limitation is complex situations vs 14. Rolling shutter is always there and there is absolutely nothing you can do about it. Pick your poison.

personally I’m fine with 12 stops on the R6. Sure I would welcome more but it also doesn’t hold me back at all. In situations like an indoor interview in front of a window 14 stops isn’t going to suddenly create magic vs 12 stops. Both will be blown out without indoor lighting to compensate for the outdoor lighting. 14 stops will blow out a tiny bit less but still both require the same solutions. The 14 stops may require less light output to compensate but lights are cheap.

If I ever had to shoot fast action however or really fast things like an airplane propeller the rolling shutter on the first R6 and the S5 kind of sucks. Nothing we can do about it either besides shooting APSC crop. R6 mk2 is much better and with APSC even better still at 10.5ms for 24p which is really fast. 60p is only 9.5ms for APSC on the R6 mk2. I don’t shoot with camera whips or fast movement however where it was ever really noticeable on the first R6 so maybe that’s not a huge deal either. Both DR and rolling shutter kind of depend on the situation and subject. It’s just we can do something about DR but we can’t about the rolling shutter. I think at the end of the day if many had to choose a global shutter with 12 stops vs a rolling shutter with 14 stops you might find more picking the global shutter. Not saying the R6 mk2 is a global shutter of course but being faster gets us closer to that dream.

We have yet to see any DR tests of the R6 mk2. The cineD test of the R6 was flawed because they only tested it when it only had Clog and not clog3. The initial visual subjective reviews feel it’s better than the R6 but I doubt it’s 14 stops level better. More likely closer to maybe a usable 13 or a solid 12. The fact we need these kind of tests to debate DR measures however is proof how little it may impact us. I mean if one camera was vastly superior to another we should all just notice it instantly right? The reality is it’s always kind of hard to judge DR with our eyes. A lot plays into into it and we tend to focus on numbers a lot more than we should. I’m not saying it’s not important but that maybe we put more relevance on it from a technical perspective than we really should and that most casual viewers even care about. There is a concept when it comes to DR of good enough. At least to the point of diminishing returns. In many cases going beyond 12 stops has more to do with flexibility and easier shooting than the actual quality someone will see. That is until more get into HDR delivery. So I guess that’s where I’m at with the whole 12 vs 14 stops thing. It’s a nice to have but not an absolute must. I low say this as one that’s been stuck on 12-13 stops or worse my whole career. The 13 stop P4k is the best DR I have ever owned. Maybe my view would change if I had an actual 14 stop camera. I don’t think it would really. It’s still a knot upgrade in my opinion. Give a little extra detail on either the extreme far ends of almost pure noise lows or the almost clipped highs. Neither of which the viewer really focuses on as the important part of the image.

again it’s a pick your poison thing really.

 

[Thomas Smet]

The other big plus with the Panasonic at least for me is the IBIS. I do a lot of handheld documentary type stuff and after using Panasonic cameras the Canon R6 IBIS was pretty disappointing. It looks like the S5ii has improved on it again and it's pretty liberating to be able to quite often do away with a tripod and capture smooth steady footage from many angles very quickly. With decent AF this would be a great combination for my style of shooting

That one I 100% agree with you. The Canon IBIS has been rather disappointing. For me it’s my first IBIS so it’s a huge improvement but I know there are much better options out there. The R6 IBIS blows away my P4k that has none at all.

The S5 II however is next level and almost gimbal level. Panasonic has always had amazing IBIS and they just upped the game yet again. That almost gimbal level IBIS combined with phase detect AF is an absolute game changer. My only concern is many of the affordable Panasonic lenses don’t have OIS so they results will not be as good as some of the tests we have seen.

I also found the R6 IBIS to really shine when standing still. When combined with the 35mm with OIS it’s pretty darn solid to shoot with. Running quickly and it’s not as good. Vlogging type situations suck on the R6 but I never do that because I’m not crazy enough to hold that heavy of a camera out at arms length for that long while walking.

I have a gimbal and I hate using it however. Cool results when it’s all setup but it’s a massive pain. I also feel we give up a lot of fine manual control when we use a gimbal. We tend to be more at the mercy of auto exposure and AF when we use a gimbal. It’s just a lot of extra hassle. With the S5 II from what I can see I could totally consider not using the gimbal for many situations. Giving me back a more natural feel to shooting where I’m more in control.

The thing I loved about Gerald Undone review is how he already provided feedback to Panasonic and they fixed some of the IBIS wobble in the firmware. He felt they really did accept and make use of his feedback to make the camera better. An area where Canon frankly sucks. It’s really a mystery what Canon will do and we have to just hope they do something right. Lately they have been getting more right than wrong but still it’s a mystery.

 

[ade4all]

Well I went from Panasonic S1 to the R6 and the drop in DR was noticeable, even my Fuji Xt3 felt better.
I thought full frame 4k50p would be a great thing but I have only used it once on the R6 when I thought I might want some slow mo but didn't and ended up conforming it to 25p anyway. I have a possibly irrational dislike to unmotivated slow mo - I am obviously in the minority here but it is very rare when I see it used in a way that actually adds to the story. I do mainly documentary stuff and realise it can have its uses but generally it's not for me
Have just found a great deal in the UK for the S5ii and the 20-60mm and 50mm 1.8 lenses for £2399. The R6ii on its own is £2779 here. So I can get this deal and get the Sigma adapter and still it is cheaper than the R6ii. Just going to double check the Af situation but I think my decision may already be made...

 

[Thomas Smet]

Well I went from Panasonic S1 to the R6 and the drop in DR was noticeable, even my Fuji Xt3 felt better.
I thought full frame 4k50p would be a great thing but I have only used it once on the R6 when I thought I might want some slow mo but didn't and ended up conforming it to 25p anyway. I have a possibly irrational dislike to unmotivated slow mo - I am obviously in the minority here but it is very rare when I see it used in a way that actually adds to the story. I do mainly documentary stuff and realise it can have its uses but generally it's not for me
Have just found a great deal in the UK for the S5ii and the 20-60mm and 50mm 1.8 lenses for £2399. The R6ii on its own is £2779 here. So I can get this deal and get the Sigma adapter and still it is cheaper than the R6ii. Just going to double check the Af situation but I think my decision may already be made...

I have also never once shot 4k60 on my R6. It’s more of a nice to know it’s there kind of thing.

That is a killer deal.

looks like very few L mount lenses have OIS. The active IS system on the S5 II is being tested on lenses with no OIS which is insanely impressive. Just watched a video testing it against many other cameras amd the 20-60 and 50mm with no OIS destroyed all other cameras. Sony was even worse than Canon. Only camera that came close was the GH6. Really good IBIS on Panasonic used to be enhanced by the lens OIS. That no longer seems to be the case.

to b3 fair in these tests the R6 mk2 would have done better if he used a lens with OIS. Still nowhere near as good however. It’s nice knowing we no longer need lenses with OIS.at least until we get into telephoto zoom range.

curious how well it works on a 70-200 at 200 or if it would be helped by OIS.

there isn’t a single L mount prime with OIS by the way.