I guess a slow pan following a speaker on stage should not be a problem in 24p, another benefit shooting 24p is the 1/50 shutter which allows a little more light.
New Panasonic AG HC-X2 (HC-X1/UX180 successor)
- Thread starter firehawk
- Start date
I guess a slow pan following a speaker on stage should not be a problem in 24p, another benefit shooting 24p is the 1/50 shutter which allows a little more light.
NorBro
Major Contributor
Yeah, I mean...thousands of movies and commercials have been shot in 24p and they aren't all static shots...lots of panning and handheld work, sliders, steadicams. And if the center of the frame has something moving as well then it also cancels out any issues/makes them less noticeable.
I hear you. Hopefully as the sensors get faster and maybe the introduction of more affordable global shutter sensors will make 24p more usable for small budget broadcast cameras such as the X2. This might be a while though, for right now one have to use those cameras carefully in 24p when panning .
NorBro
Major Contributor
It also depends on the presentations; a person pacing back-and-forth, side-to-side would make it more difficult.
When I filmed those, I very gently panned and had most of the body in the frame. Because if the person is moving around too much and you're constantly in tight like from hip to head (or closer) then I think it's too much movement and can produce a headache.
Great to cut in really close from time to time to change it up, but it has to feel right. Which is usually the director's job...or the director of post-production (someone directing the flow of cuts in a non-live, non-streamed multi-cam edit).
When I filmed those, I very gently panned and had most of the body in the frame. Because if the person is moving around too much and you're constantly in tight like from hip to head (or closer) then I think it's too much movement and can produce a headache.
Great to cut in really close from time to time to change it up, but it has to feel right. Which is usually the director's job...or the director of post-production (someone directing the flow of cuts in a non-live, non-streamed multi-cam edit).
Doug Jensen
Carbonite Member
FYI, every Sony camera I own (F55, FS7, Z750, Z280, FX6, etc), plus my Panasonic S1H, can capture 23.98p @ 60 fps. Pretty common feature these days. Some of them can even do 120 fps, 180 fps, or 240 fps in a 23.98p file.
NorBro
Major Contributor
It would actually be capturing 60p @ 23.98p (60 over a lower-framerate, overcranked, but that's semantics).
I knew other cameras had the feature but not all like in the aforementioned three above.
Almost no new mirrorless has had that feature for the last 10+ years, and it was only recently that it's becoming more of a "common" feature in the hybrids and cinema-based mirrorless'.
Hopefully more will see the ability to dial in any exact frame from 1-120p+ besides a provided choice like 48, 60, etc.
Bassman2003
Veteran
I would never shoot any kind of tripod based show or presentation on a stage using 24p. Panning from a fixed position is the achilles heel of 24p imho. Yes it is used for many types of production but the judder totally disrupts the viewing experience of a stage show/presentation. Especially if you get a 'wanderer' type speaker.
NorBro
Major Contributor
Here's a Ted Talk @25p from yesterday...if you scrub around, you'll see she's moving a lot and it's barely noticeable because the pans are slow and the camera is moving with the subject:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xTEPNxx0MsA
[I know 25p isn't 24p, but they have too many videos to find one at 24p, if one exists, and they seem to be mixed with 30p and 60p as well.]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xTEPNxx0MsA
[I know 25p isn't 24p, but they have too many videos to find one at 24p, if one exists, and they seem to be mixed with 30p and 60p as well.]
Doug Jensen
Carbonite Member
Interesting. Not that it matters at all, but I think it is just the opposite.
If the recording format is 24p and your frame rate is 60 fps, then you are recording a 24p clip @ 60 fps. At the end of the day, you have a 24p clip that was recorded faster than 24 fps, but the clip is a 24p clip nevertheless. Therefore you are recording a 24p clip @ 60 fps. I don't see how you could think it is reversed.
Doug Jensen
Carbonite Member
Absolutely. If someone can't handle panning in a 24p production, something has gone wrong. Check the camera or the monitoring becuase it should be no issue whatsoever. I used to shoot a ton of 24p classroom presentations/lectures at Harvard Business School that had a lot of movement and there were never any issues.
Boy, I'd love to thave had the AF back then that we have now. Would have been a hell of a lot easier. These kids today don't know how good they have it.
NorBro
Major Contributor
It comes from film cameras, overcranking and undercranking.
In the history of working on sets, some people who needed to communicate about this process, in this context, would ask to shoot a framerate over (or under) a project base.
I mean, you can say and include the @ symbol in your request if you'd like, it makes sense to me, but you could be confusing some people.
To some, it's like asking to change the balance white or speed shutter and one may have to confirm with you if you'd like to change the white balance or shutter speed just to make sure you're on the same page.
It's been a long time since I used 24p, but I do remember capturing a presentation a while back at 24p because I needed more light. The speaker was moving all over the place in which I had to keep up with panning, some comps on medium shots did not look pleasing to my eye when I played it back.
I usually use a zoom rocker, start the session on wide and zoom in to a medium shot (waist up) then zoom in and out occasionally from medium to medium wide so it's not boring. If you are lucky and get someone who is standing behind the podium most of the time then 24p is okay, I wouldn't want to chance it though. On the other hand if I am doing a two camera production with a live switcher I could see myself getting away with 24p since I am cutting back and forth when they walk instead of panning too much.
Having said that I still think it's ironic that Panasonic took out the 1080/29.97p from MP4. Frankly, I just assumed those basic formats would be there like the previous generation and never looked into it. If I saw that it's not there I probably would not have bought the camera. Not because I have a problem with .mov but rather because occasionally I will have a client who sends a list of requirements and 1080/29.97 MP4 is one of them. If editing is not part of the package and this happens then I will have to spend extra time converting the file/s.
NorBro
Major Contributor
Maybe YouTube some videos on 24p panning speeds and see if there's anything worthy to take in.
One thing I have greatly learned in my career is not all camera operators are gentle creatures with their panning and tilting.
Not saying you did anything wrong, just that some handle a camera like a stick shift and aren't even aware until it's brought to their attention and they are taught more.
One thing I have greatly learned in my career is not all camera operators are gentle creatures with their panning and tilting.
Not saying you did anything wrong, just that some handle a camera like a stick shift and aren't even aware until it's brought to their attention and they are taught more.
I always have two handles on the tripod head and use both hands to pan and tilt to make it as smooth as possible. I just don't think those sensors are ready for prime time at 24p. Hopefully Panasonic can add those basic features back in a firmware update even though this camera category does not get much attention like their GH series when it comes to firmware updates.
For the time being, I will have to shoot in .mov and convert to MP4 if the client requires it
.
NorBro
Major Contributor
I don't know, man - I think they are fine. I used to have a HPX250 (which I loved) and filmed many presentations with it in 24p, and this was like 10 years ago.
As far as converting, really just so unnecessary.
We all understand client requests, but these people are also human beings who you can have conversations with and explain the matter at hand.
Critically-thinking about it, the technical stuff should not matter to them in this case when there is absolutely no difference they would ever see or hear. It's about capturing the person presenting and speaking.
It's not like a question between 8-bit 720p off of a fingernail chip made in 2000 and 16-bit full-frame REDCODE RAW from 2023. It's the same 8-bit .mov or .mp4 and the only reason both exist is because of this very outdated ideology concerning playback performance.
They should be more concerned with wardrobe and a fine MUA.
As far as converting, really just so unnecessary.
We all understand client requests, but these people are also human beings who you can have conversations with and explain the matter at hand.
Critically-thinking about it, the technical stuff should not matter to them in this case when there is absolutely no difference they would ever see or hear. It's about capturing the person presenting and speaking.
It's not like a question between 8-bit 720p off of a fingernail chip made in 2000 and 16-bit full-frame REDCODE RAW from 2023. It's the same 8-bit .mov or .mp4 and the only reason both exist is because of this very outdated ideology concerning playback performance.
They should be more concerned with wardrobe and a fine MUA.
cpreston
Veteran
I'm a bit surprised that nobody here mentioned shooting at 60p. My live event work is done at 60p and a 360 degree shutter angle.
Also, I think the only time anybody would actually notice the judder at 24p is if you screw up the tracking of the speaker or try to pan to somebody else on stage, both of which would feel like a mistake anyway.
Also, I think the only time anybody would actually notice the judder at 24p is if you screw up the tracking of the speaker or try to pan to somebody else on stage, both of which would feel like a mistake anyway.
Bassman2003
Veteran
When I starter using the CX350 I was surprised that 1080p30 PN was taken out of the P2 list of frame rates. So there must be a reason why Panasonic is .using MOV for 30p with their cameras.
Regarding 24p and stages, I see it as a risk. Once you shoot in that frame rate you can not go back if the client does not like it. Safer to shoot in the higher frame rates and drop it to 24p if needed (although the shutter will be higher). I once shot a theatre production in 24p (this was delivered on DVD, so the motion was worse than computer playback) and the first thing that was noticed was "why is the image stroby"... To each their own. I just think you can't go wrong delivering live things in faster frame rates.
Regarding 24p and stages, I see it as a risk. Once you shoot in that frame rate you can not go back if the client does not like it. Safer to shoot in the higher frame rates and drop it to 24p if needed (although the shutter will be higher). I once shot a theatre production in 24p (this was delivered on DVD, so the motion was worse than computer playback) and the first thing that was noticed was "why is the image stroby"... To each their own. I just think you can't go wrong delivering live things in faster frame rates.
NorBro
Major Contributor
I'll just say one thing about DVDs...I have never in my entire career seen more user error than I have with people putting their finished products onto DVDs.
Interlacing, progressive, fields, no fields, flipped fields, incorrect aspect ratios, stretched images, weird settings enabled...it was a mess created by people who simply didn't know what they were doing (so not everything should be blamed on the framerate although some def could).
Interlacing, progressive, fields, no fields, flipped fields, incorrect aspect ratios, stretched images, weird settings enabled...it was a mess created by people who simply didn't know what they were doing (so not everything should be blamed on the framerate although some def could).
I should not rush to judgement on the X2 sensor's rolling shutter as I have not tested it yet but I was not happy with the UX90's at 24p. Most clients really don't care what format you deliver as long as it meets their needs which is usually for streaming. Occasionally you will get a client who is set on what they want.