Sony A1 - Reduce Aliasing w/ Mist Filter?

Joshua Milligan

Well-known member
I am considering selling my A7SIII for a second A1 to go along with my FX6. I love my A7SIII, but I am getting more jobs recently that are requiring me to deliver photographs in addition to video. I don't like doing both and would prefer to just do video, but I'm finding that marketing teams for various companies/agencies are starting to want to work with people who can do both. And because of how I work, I typically shoot stills with two cameras bodies, hence the need for a second A1.

You might wonder why I don't just keep my A7SIII and simply grab an A7IV, but the truth is I don't want that camera. It's useless to me for video since it has horrible overheating issues (and I live in Texas), plus the rolling shutter is terrible. As such it would only be a stills camera and nothing else. I would rather have a second A1 that can do both and do both well than a body I'll only ever use for stills.

The A1 is great and I've been using it for a while now. For video, I've used it as a C-cam to my FX6/A7SIII on three camera shoots as well as a handheld/slider cam when my A7SIII is already mounted to a gimbal.

In my opinion, the A1 is dang near the perfect mirrorless camera. It shoots stills faster than an A9 with quality that exceeds the A7RIV (thanks to better colors and better noise performance), all while matching or exceeding the A7SIII for video in virtually every category. Some say the A1's screen should've been the flip out type, but I think that's simply personal preference as I actually prefer the tilting kind. Some also say it's not as good in lowlight as the A7SIII, but again I think that's down to personal preference as the A1 outperforms the A7SIII up until 12,800. So unless you're filming in extreme lowlight conditions, the A1 actually outperforms the A7SIII, while also offering Super35 4K (downscaled from 5.8K) as well as full frame 8K in 10-bit 4:2:0 which edits well if you turn on proxy recording and work with proxies in post.

In my opinion the A1 really only has one flaw and that's the fact that its full frame 4K is pixel binned (some say it's line skipped, but most say binned, I am not an engineer so I don't know). The pixel binned full frame 4K doesn't really suffer from softness as side-by-side chart shots compared to the A7SIII's native full frame 4K look nearly indistinguishable. You can barely see that the A7SIII is sharper, but only when looking at side-by-side charts scaled in. In real world shooting where I've used the A1 in full frame 4K alongside the A7SIII, to my eye they look exactly the same sharpness wise. Even in three camera interview shoots I can't really see a difference between the A1, A7SIII or FX6. As such the only flaw I've found in the whole camera, photo or video wise, is that the pixel binned 4K full frame is more susceptible to aliasing. That's really it. Outside of that, it's dang near perfect.

That brings me to the topic of this post. In my experience so far, I can only recall seeing aliasing one time on an actual paid shoot and that was on a pair on blue jeans during a shot I got of a construction manager. I didn't notice it at first, but when reviewing the footage at home I could see it. Did it ruin the shot? No. But I am not a fan of aliasing, so it did stick out to me. Outside of that, I haven't really noticed it much.

That being said, I have seen it in other people's footage online and I know there will be times when needing to get say a wide angle gimbal shot of a building where aliasing could rear its ugly head. So to prepare for that, I have been doing some digging online to see how I could minimize it. One workaround is to shoot in Super35 4K when there are fine patterns as it isn't binned. Another is to shoot in 8K if in the same situation, but when you need full frame. Both of those options are great, but what if you need 4K 60p full frame, or what if you need 4K 120p which is only in full frame? Both of those options would require you to use the pixel binned full frame 4K image.

An interesting idea I read about was to use mist filters for those situations. I have and use a 1/8 mist filter all the time and really like the look, so I wouldn't mind using it when needing to shoot in full frame 4K. I've never tried it though specifically for aliasing and am curious if any of you have. If so, does it truly reduce or eliminate it? If so, that could be a fantastic workaround for this problem.

Overall the A1 is an amazing camera and I don't mind selling my A7SIII to pick up a second one. I just want to make sure I don't find myself in aliasing hell whereas I haven't with my A7SIII. Sony could simply fix this problem by giving us a 4K HQ mode similar to what Canon does with the R5. The A1 handles heat well, so I wish Sony would do this. 4K downsampled from the 8K, especially if they could get it up to 120p, would make this camera pretty much perfect in my opinion. But until that happens, I am looking for other options.

Thanks!
 
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Im not a sony geek so cant follow all this.

if you shoot mf you might find a vintage lens may take the edge off

any way to lower the res of the input signal to 3.8k - including your suggested filter

if you only have one ofvthe affected bodies you could use it telephoto
 
I've read about softening filters and vintage lenses functioning as a slight optical-low-pass-filter to eliminate or at least reduce moire, which was a particular issue in the early DSLR video days. I haven't read about mist filters working as a low strength OLPF, but perhaps it would work if you had the right brand, type, and strength mist filter.

If you have a spare UV filter, you can make a DIY softening filter by dabbing dots of clear nail polish on it, or a DIY glimmer glass filter by misting a little clear coat on the UV filter. There's obviously more to the real versions, but this would let you test your theory without spending a lot of money on filters that you might not otherwise use.

P.S. If your mist filter solution works, you will need different strength mist filters depending on your focal length.
 
I'm guessing that the A1 can't do a full readout 120 times per second, or possibly even 60. They could probably offer a 4K HQ mode full frame up to 30fps, which is the top framerate of 8k, right? But the 8K recording is 4:2:0, so maybe it can't do 4:2:2 full readout at 30fps?

I have the a7iv and the overheating isn't that bad. Though I'm glad it's not my A camera. The rolling shutter isn't that bad either, but perhaps I think that because I either use it on lockoffs or in crop mode.

I can't speak to how successful you'll be with a mist filter. (Are you using Black pro-mist btw?) I think it should help. Maybe you can set up an aliasing torture test using the A1 you already have and then find out if the mist filter gets you out of jail?
 
Mist filters play with contrast (I am not a fan). To soften the image, you may want to try something like a pantyhose over the lens or some lubricant/ointment like Vaseline or butter. Otherwise, buy an external anti-aliasing/low pass filter. But good ones ain't cheap.
 
Mist filters play with contrast (I am not a fan). To soften the image, you may want to try something like a pantyhose over the lens or some lubricant/ointment like Vaseline or butter. Otherwise, buy an external anti-aliasing/low pass filter. But good ones ain't cheap.

I am a fan of mist filters. I love the way they soften skin as well as highlights. A 1/8 mist is my favorite.

Can you share with me an external anti-aliasing/low pass filter link? I'm looking online, but I'm not quite sure what I'm looking for.

Thanks!
 
That brings me to the topic of this post. In my experience so far, I can only recall seeing aliasing one time on an actual paid shoot and that was on a pair on blue jeans during a shot I got of a construction manager. I didn't notice it at first, but when reviewing the footage at home I could see it. !

You should bring that footage into Resolve and try reducing the Midtone Detail to -40, or maybe a little more. You could even use various tools to just isolate the blue jeans if you are concerned about not wanting to soften other parts of the image. MD is a really great tool for taking the edge off stuff that looks a little too sharp or that has some some minor aliasing. Very fast and easy with only one parameter to play with. It does wonders for people's skin, too. Try it. I'd love to hear if it works for you in this case.

I've been using my A1 only for stills so far and haven't shot any video with it yet, but if I do find aliasing to be an issue, my go-to solution would be to put a Tiffen Soft/FX 1 or 2 on the lens. That is, by far, my favorite softening filter. A Soft/FX 2 worked miracles to remove the "video" look of Betacam back in the day and it never left my lens.
 
You should bring that footage into Resolve and try reducing the Midtone Detail to -40, or maybe a little more. You could even use various tools to just isolate the blue jeans if you are concerned about not wanting to soften other parts of the image. MD is a really great tool for taking the edge off stuff that looks a little too sharp or that has some some minor aliasing. Very fast and easy with only one parameter to play with. It does wonders for people's skin, too. Try it. I'd love to hear if it works for you in this case.

I've been using my A1 only for stills so far and haven't shot any video with it yet, but if I do find aliasing to be an issue, my go-to solution would be to put a Tiffen Soft/FX 1 or 2 on the lens. That is, by far, my favorite softening filter. A Soft/FX 2 worked miracles to remove the "video" look of Betacam back in the day and it never left my lens.

Thanks for the advice! I do grade in Resolve, so I will definitely give this a try. I also will look into the Tiffen Soft/FX 1 & 2 filters you recommended.

You should try the A1 for video sometime. You already know it's a great stills camera. My favorite stills camera ever. But for video it's pretty amazing as well. Cuts together extremely well with the FX6.
 
I'm guessing that the A1 can't do a full readout 120 times per second, or possibly even 60. They could probably offer a 4K HQ mode full frame up to 30fps, which is the top framerate of 8k, right? But the 8K recording is 4:2:0, so maybe it can't do 4:2:2 full readout at 30fps?

I have the a7iv and the overheating isn't that bad. Though I'm glad it's not my A camera. The rolling shutter isn't that bad either, but perhaps I think that because I either use it on lockoffs or in crop mode.

I can't speak to how successful you'll be with a mist filter. (Are you using Black pro-mist btw?) I think it should help. Maybe you can set up an aliasing torture test using the A1 you already have and then find out if the mist filter gets you out of jail?

The A1 does top out at 30p for 8K, so that's correct. The A7IV looks like a nice camera, it just doesn't interest me. I had major overheating problems here in Texas with the A7III and because I've read where others have already struggled with that with the A7IV, I just personally couldn't risk it. But that has a lot to do with where I live. It gets hot here!

To answer your question, I'm using Polar Pro's Mist Light filters (1/8 mist) with their BaseCamp matte boxes. I've got a pair of them. They look fantastic.

I definitely could do an aliasing test, I just thought I would ask first in case there's some info on that already.
 
Im not a sony geek so cant follow all this.

if you shoot mf you might find a vintage lens may take the edge off

any way to lower the res of the input signal to 3.8k - including your suggested filter

if you only have one ofvthe affected bodies you could use it telephoto

Thanks for the tips!
 
I've read about softening filters and vintage lenses functioning as a slight optical-low-pass-filter to eliminate or at least reduce moire, which was a particular issue in the early DSLR video days. I haven't read about mist filters working as a low strength OLPF, but perhaps it would work if you had the right brand, type, and strength mist filter.

If you have a spare UV filter, you can make a DIY softening filter by dabbing dots of clear nail polish on it, or a DIY glimmer glass filter by misting a little clear coat on the UV filter. There's obviously more to the real versions, but this would let you test your theory without spending a lot of money on filters that you might not otherwise use.

P.S. If your mist filter solution works, you will need different strength mist filters depending on your focal length.

Thanks Imamacuser!
 
If you have a spare UV filter, you can make a DIY softening filter by dabbing dots of clear nail polish on it, or a DIY glimmer glass filter by misting a little clear coat on the UV filter. There's obviously more to the real versions, but this would let you test your theory without spending a lot of money on filters that you might not otherwise use.

I made my own softening filters years ago by taking UV filters and setting them on a table and then spraying aersol hair spray a couple feet above them (not at the glass) and letting the mist float down and settle on the glass. It provided a very even coating at whatever strength I wanted. And if I went too far, it was easy to clean off with Windex and start again Aqua-Net was the best.
https://www.amazon.com/Aqua-Net-Extra-Professional-Unscented/dp/B002K33AFM
 
BTW, the most obvious thing is to test the camera with different lenses at different apertures, focal lengths and distances to the subject.
 
No even need to test! Understanding of the basic pysics.. when the image detail=the sensor line spacing then you get moiree

of course changing distance will sort it. a the image detail change in size.

The trouble might be having good enough monitoring to see moiree and a director who is happy to change the shot size when needed.

Im not clear if this is a two (different) camera setup... but Id guess if you have two cams use the long lens on the one that tends to moiree
 
The A1 does top out at 30p for 8K, so that's correct. The A7IV looks like a nice camera, it just doesn't interest me. I had major overheating problems here in Texas with the A7III and because I've read where others have already struggled with that with the A7IV, I just personally couldn't risk it. But that has a lot to do with where I live. It gets hot here!
.

I'm not suggesting you get an a7iv, just commenting on my experience. I had all the same expectations you mentioned and it's worked out better than I feared

DLD - pro-mist definitely softens the image somewhat. Tiffen advertises that their white mist filter "softens blemishes and wrinkles" and that it decreases detail "less than" traditional soft filters do. I remember reading that contrast and detail are intimately related. Also, you've probably seen a ton of stuff that was shot with black pro-mist that you liked...

I'm partial to Tiffen Black Satin but I never tried using it specifically as an AA filter. I was fighting against some serious kind of horrible moire or just strange patterning on a jumbo digital screen recently and all I could do at the time to solve it was throw the image slightly out of focus. Not an ideal solution but it salvaged the material
 
I think people tend to overdo it. 1/8 may be OK but some tend to lay it on so thick that every shot looks like it's bathed in milk.

Matter of taste, right?

BTW, internal OLPF's for Red cameras can run in excess of $1,000. In that scenario, I'd definitely choose Pro Mist.
 
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