GH6 with ProRes

[DLD]

... maybe put another way - the perfect camera today always exists several years in the future

More like, "the perfect camera of the future costs three times as much today as it would in the future".

Then again, to quote the late great George Allen, "the future is now".

 

[Thomas Smet]

100% agree. And I snagged the 10-25 f1.7 lens (even though I had a sigma 18-35 w/speedbooster and a set of voigtlander nokton primes) and am very glad I did. The focus clutch feels wonderful, image quality is nice, it's a little ligher and smaller than the sigma+booster setup and better weight distribution too (sigma is front heavy, whereas lumix 10-25 is rear heavy so it feel much better). And I see the GH6 also allows customizing the focus throw on that lens. I tell you, the GH6 10-25 combo is going to be a dream for my travel work.

Regarding lowlight, Thomas, you're probably one of the most knowledgeable/able to answer this question and bring clarity, I ask it here with higher context because there's a lot of misinformation online: https://www.dvxuser.com/forum/filmm...-m43-f2-8-light-gathering-not-dof#post5687123

Essentially I never shoot below f2.8 on FF with my Milvus lenses as I can't handle how shallow it gets. But on M43 I find I can open it up much more. So I am wondering, *NOT* DOF question, but light question on FF 2.8 vs M43 F1.2. I am curious as to if it's roughly similar performance for lowlight on a lower megapixel GH sensor vs a higher megapixel FF sensor. Probably worth answering on the other thread!

I gave a much more long winded response to your other three. The short version here is it depends. Its a tradeoff of aperture performance vs ISO performance. Some lenses look like crap wide open and some ISO looks like crap raised higher.

If you are trying to get a similar DOF however the sensitivity would roughly be the same with f1.4 ISO 400 m43 vs f2.8 ISO 1600 FF. At that point it may be hard to really have any advantage with any of those options. But ISO is ISO and damages the image the more its raised. Even if it doesn't look like it is. ISO isn't just about noise either. Color suffers, fine detail, and dynamic range. I prefer if given a chance to shoot as low of ISO as possible on either m43 or FF. If it didn't matter then FF camera would just start at a higher ISO since there would be no point to shoot ISO 100.

Optically you have to be careful opening a lens wide open as well. Lenses never look perfect wide open. Most lenses have a sweet spot around f5.6 give ir take and the type of lens of course. Some resolve exceptionally well down to f2.8. Corners softness, vignetting, CA and overall poor softness and contrast can hurt an image a lot more than 2 stops of extra ISO could. But its all about perception. Sometimes those optical aspects are not considered bad and some love that look. Noise on the other hand is treated like the plague. To each their own really.

 

[ahalpert]

. Noise on the other hand is treated like the plague. To each their own really.

There are also many different types and colors of noise that look better or worse depending on your preference. It's very hard to quantify and create reference numbers for that reason. You might have a lot of pleasing noise with one camera and a little bit of ugly noise with another. Which one wins?

And I don't think any camera looks good pushed more than a stop above base ISO. The reason the a7siii and gh5s look so good so high is not because they can be pushed but because they have the high gain circuitry. And the color and DR look good There too. Otherwise we wouldn't talk about using it. What you really lose vs low base is a bit of DR

 

[Peter C.]

I don't understand this too well. Let's say a camera has a base iso 800. How does the camera lower the iso when not filming in log? Normally you need to do some combination of close the iris, increase the shutter speed or add an ND. So what does the camera do outdoors if you reduce the iso to 100? What I understand is that the sensitivity of the sensor can't be changed.

 

[hyalinejim]

The answer to that example is that often an IS0 "800" in a log profile is actually ISO 100 pushed three stops to give extra highlight headroom.

 

[lexicon]

Panasonic GH6 Review – Their Best Mirrorless Camera Yet? (CineD)

 

[Thomas Smet]

Thinking out loud here but if the GH6 can take its faster sensor and limit it to 60p for dynamic range boost could a future sensor double that gain again with a faster sensor? So instead of taking two exposures it could take four exposures or maybe even three. We know from stills HDR the more images we have the more we can push the HDR.

 

[Thomas Smet]

Now here is a nice latitude and ISO test between a wide range of cameras. Look at the poor Canon R6...

That tiny little m43 GH6 sure is holding up well to FF cameras.

 

[NorBro]

The R6 could be a monster, but they give it IPB to slow its role. It's never going to win in under/over tests when it's so fragile. Need to paint the picture inside the box.

Or give it external RAW like you've been asking for.

 

[Thomas Smet]

Nice video. VS the FF S-series, the GH6 looks at most to have a 1.5 stop disadvantage in latitude and 1.5-2 stops in ISO. Not much to complain about.

Especially since the advantage doesn't come into play until ISO 12800 and higher, and around ~13 stops range or higher. And especially since the ISO advantage on FF is offset by m43 ability to open 2 stops wider maintain the same DOF, you really only get the FF ISO advantage if you're willing to shoot very wide open/extremely shallow.

Though I bet the S1H mk ii will have even better high ISO and maybe DR boost as well. So it's always a moving target. Regardless, hard to make a case anymore that m43 is gimped. In the AF100 days the platform had a lot of compromises, I remember being frustrated at the DR and low light. GH5 was wayyy better but I still didn't feel content, still wanted FF. But from everything I've seen I'd feel pretty content to book a gig to some grandiose shooting location and bring the GH6 guilt free... it's up to the task and I wouldn't feel as if I'm leaving quality on the floor by not packing up the FF rig.

I really didn't expect the GH6 to perform as well as it does.

Don't forget about a focal reducer on m43 to gain a stop. Then we are talking maybe a 1/2 to maybe 1 stop advantage for FF. 0.64x SpeedBooster and that is even less. Potentially 1/3 to 2/3 a stop. M43 can also use the Sigma f1.8 zooms vs FF which would have to use them in crop mode with a reduced ISO performance. Limited range but that combo on GH6 is going to be a serious contender against many FF cameras.

Without a doubt the GH6 is in s35mm sensor territory now.

Seriously though anyone want to buy a R6?

 

[indiawilds]

How does everyone feel about the ProRes? Why is it never ProRes Raw, is there a special restriction on that or something?

Clients prefer ProRes.

When RED folds up, you will see ProRes Raw in other cameras. Till that time, you have to bear with it.

Either transcode and bill it to the client or convince the client to accept whatever you give.

PS: I wonder how many still shoot with m4/3

 

[Clermond]

PS: I wonder how many still shoot with m4/3

me. For anamorphic stills.
can't wait for the GH6

 

[Thomas Smet]

PS: I wonder how many still shoot with m4/3

I don't have any numbers but I do know of some nature and wildlife photographers that have switched from FF to m43 because of the extra telephoto reach and compact size. I'm not talking the compact size of the camera body but the long reach telephoto lenses. For wedding or studio portraits its likely the opposite and I don't know anybody using m43.

Even on the wildlife side it is almost entirely Olympus for photos and not Panasonic. Olympus has a pretty good following with pro photographers. Panasonic not so much. Even the S series FF from Panasonic is not taken seriously in the photography world from what I have seen. Good cameras but typically if one wants to shoot photos they go Canon, Nikon or Sony and in some cases Olympus.

 

[Thomas Smet]

https://f002.backblazeb2.com/file/a...-GH6-ProRes-RAW-Announcement-DISTRIBUTION.pdf

Sweet! Atomos will be supporting both the Ninja V and Ninja V+ with the GH6 for ProRes Raw. Previously only the Ninja V+ was mentioned. The Ninja V+ is only required for 120p which I can totally live without for external raw.

No word yet on which supported formats but they say a wide range of profile and frame rates. I would think its at least the 5.7k 17x9. I'm hoping for the open gate 5.8k which would be insanely awesome as ProRes Raw with anamorphic or spherical lenses. For VFX it will be nice to have the extra vertical space.

 

[Ron Evans]

Not that I will use all the time but that will mean I will be able to record ProRes RAW from both my GH5S and the GH6 to my Ninja V's. I feel like a kid waiting for Christmas presents !! Vistek are still staying 14 March release date but I do not believe that.

 

[Thomas Smet]

Not that I will use all the time but that will mean I will be able to record ProRes RAW from both my GH5S and the GH6 to my Ninja V's. I feel like a kid waiting for Christmas presents !! Vistek are still staying 14 March release date but I do not believe that.

ProRes Raw support is coming later with a firmware update. Who knows how long that will be. Could be a month or by the end of the year I think. All I know is ProRes Raw support will not be there on day one.

 

[Ron Evans]

ProRes Raw support is coming later with a firmware update. Who knows how long that will be. Could be a month or by the end of the year I think. All I know is ProRes Raw support will not be there on day one.

That is fine . It is not something I use. Just a future possibility. I like shooting 60P so that may never come. Of more interest is internal and external 5.7K 60P recording. I have played around shooting RAW on the GH5S and until I got Assimulator to use on WIN10 it did not have much control in EDIUS and of course did not work at all in Resolve.

 

[Thomas Smet]

That is fine . It is not something I use. Just a future possibility. I like shooting 60P so that may never come. Of more interest is internal and external 5.7K 60P recording.

60p will for sure be there. 120p is the only format that requires the Ninja V+. 60p will even support the dynamic range boost for raw. Not sure about 5.7k. 5.8k open gate is for sure limited to 30p because of the sensor and DSP on the GH6.

 

[fboonzaier]

Non sound guys who know a decent bit about sound definitely care about 32-bit, it is game changing for a single operator. For the simple reason that it’s as close to error proof as you can get.

Docu: multiple recorders to multiple people with zero need to monitor levels. I’m one person. Shooting an ambient scene, you can keep audio levels optimal, and then never worry about that large truck that passes or the loud thump or the yell from the crowd. Shooting an interview with a soft spoken subject with an emotional topic as they speak quietly, but then a moment later start a new thought with a raised voice. The take is one of a kind, one take only emotional perfection, except it clipped - except it didn’t, because it’s 32 but.

as a solo operator I choose 32 bit over AF. I look forward to future cameras where 32 bit is standard, it’s the RAW of audio.

Maybe some dedicated sound guys don’t care about 32 bit because a big part of their job is to monitor levels full time for living.

Have to second this in the strongest terms....with any unpredictability, say filming in a crowded spaces where kids are laughing or screaming, maybe a plane overhead halfway into the best take, a car backfiring or just a quiet response to a question etc, 32 bit is incredible. So for my sensibility I would much rather have 32bit than AF.

 

[Clermond]

.. So for my sensibility I would much rather have 32bit than AF.

You can achieve 32bit float easily by adding a tiny Tentacle Track recorder which has even timecode.
Unfortunately there is no tiny 380€ add-on for AF. I switched from Panasonic EVA1 / S1
to Canon C300iii and R5 because of AF and I didn't regret it for a second though I liked
the Panasonic colors very much.