Nikon Z9 with internal 8K 60p RAW !

NorBro said:
... Maybe RED is open to more opportunities in the final years of their patents' reign, and compressed and limited video output which existed for the last 40 years or so in most hardware will slowly come to an end as the next generation has mostly cameras that offer some of the purest output possible which should have always been the reality (but wasn't).
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Codec patents have a 20 year shelf-life and Red received its in 2016, IIRC. But it's quite possible that the Belgians are using a totally different encoding scheme, which renders Red's patents superfluous.

BTW, Nikon could have also offered a 12-bit HEVC but chose to skip that step.
 
If 11mp images @120fps JPEG is too small then 33mp screen grabs off the 8K 60p videos might work for something more than the 30 fps JPEG mode.
 
Note that RED's patents do not merely cover a specific codec, they cover any form of compressed recording of RAW image data from a camera sensor (at 2K or greater resolution and at least 23 fps). RED sued sued Kinefinity and forced them to drop compressed cDNG, ProRes RAW, and plans for their own KineRAW format from their cameras:
https://ymcinema.com/2021/03/01/kinefinity-removes-raw-codecs-from-its-cinema-cameras/

You can also read the details of RED's complaint in that lawsuit and see that they took issue with any form of compressed RAW recording.
https://portal.unifiedpatents.com/litigation/California Central District Court/case/8:21-cv-00041

RED also claimed that Atomos violated their patents, even though they do not sell cameras at all. Presumably RED's claim was that since the Atomos recorders are being used to record RAW camera data in a compressed way, it is still a violation of their patents. Atomos disputed this, but eventually opted for some kind of paid license agreement with RED to allow the use of ProRes RAW in their recorders rather than fight it through the legal system: https://www.newsshooter.com/2019/01/24/atomos-and-red-announce-a-royalty-based-license-agreement/

As far I know, Apple has not licensed RED's patents as there is nothing in the ProRes RAW codec specifically that infringes on RED's patents. RAW codecs themselves are generally not the issue, as there lots of unique ways one can come up with to encode and compress RAW image data that differ from R3D. But it doesn't matter if you have a unique compressed RAW codec, as once you take that RAW codec, and use it in a device that can record camera image data, that's when the patent issues arise.

If Nikon's N-RAW is the intoPIX TICO RAW codec mentioned earlier, it certainly sounds like a relatively straightforward compressed RAW codec as they talk about RAW data from the color filter array (CFA): https://www.intopix.com/tico-raw
I suppose it is possible that for N-RAW, Nikon is using some kind of partial debayering approach (similar to Blackmagic RAW) and then feeding the result through TICO compression. That would probably be ok, as it's not truly RAW image data any longer.

But it seems like ProRes RAW would still be an issue without a license from RED.
 
RED has officially and unofficially - and directly and indirectly - defeated everyone including ARRI, Sony, Blackmagic, Kinefinity, Ikonoskop, Digital Bolex, Atomos, and Apple. (Along with licensing, Atomos has made monitors for RED.)

After Apple lost, the next logical step was to find a temporary suitor for ProRes RAW (while they work on their own cameras) and for whatever reason Nikon was chosen. But Canon and Sony probably have such big plans for 2022+ that it's going to make some of us retire, ha.

Beautiful changes coming to cameras, and I feel super old.
 
Regardless of the sourcing and the patents, no one is denying that Nikon will have some form of Raw in 2022 (presumably, it won't be on December, 31st). Maybe Canon will feel compelled to upgrade/update R5 to eliminate overheating. That has been rumored for a while. Maybe Sony will lower the A1 price. That has not been rumored at all. Maybe Panasonic will come out with an 8K model that also has a functioning AF. Fuji's supposed to come out with an 8K APS-C model sometimes in 2022 as well.

PS. Sony's been rumored to have A7RV at some point but it's likely to let A7IV and Z9 hold on to the spotlight for a while. Older gossip had RV with the same 61 MPX sensor but now with 8K. Given its lineup, the company can keep RIV at the same price and release RV to directly compete with R5 in the $4,000 tier. With A7IV not shipping until December (in the US), A7RV will probably wait until late spring 2022 at least.

By which point, NoBro will feel young again.
 
I just want to know what the problem(s) will be with the Z9...because for $5500 and its lineup there's going to be a problem, ha.
 
isn't the problem just that it's Nikon for starters?

also I feel like sony is looking pretty lame without an internal raw codec of its own
 
It would make Sony too powerful...they need to spread the wealth with their friends.
 
New rumors that Canon will make something even better than ... everything that has ever been made. Which calls into question the existence of R3 because even a 45 MPX R3 is really an R5 at $6,000. Oddly enough, no one is bringing up a high resolution camera anymore.
 
For me, there's about a 1% chance I personally buy any other camera moving forward in life besides Canon, and I really dislike that it is them who makes the kind of cameras I'm interested in.

A love-and-really-hate-a lot-sometimes relationship.
 
The manufacturers will leapfrog over one another, as is usually the case in business. The problem with the photo-video industry is that they know who's going to leapfrog whom ahead of time and before you do and that they pick niches regardless of their market value. Meaning that, the $1,000-$2,500 range is arguably the most valuable one due to the number of units moved and the profit margin per unit but, over the last year or so, the big movement was at the very top of the consumer/pro market with R5, R3, A1 and Z9. To an individual user, it may mean that an upgrade that could have arrived in a two year time may take four - hello, A7SIII and GH-6 - and having to settle, albeit temporarily, for the gear that is inferior to the latest from the competitors.

On the other hand, the nature of the electronics results in the latest product being pretty incredible compared to the generations from even half a decade ago and the cost of gear acquisition is almost irrelevant compared to the fees a pro can charge with that gear.
 
The new releases from Canon and Nikon are giving me major camera envy. That being said, I'm not sure how soon I'll need more capabilities than what I can already do with the A7SIII and FX3. Which, of course, says more about the type of work I'm doing than the cameras themselves. My stuff usually isn't going to be given a lot of editing or color correction time. Small file sizes are preferred. Extra capabilities are always welcome and I'm sure that if I had internal RAW, I'd find occasion to use it. But it's not a must-have.

If they came out with an FX3 with eND, I think I'd have to buy it.

If they substantially improved the AF on future mirrorless cameras to the point where it was nailing the infrequent situations where my cameras currently struggle, then that would be a strong inducement to upgrade.

And a 12-bit 4:4:4 compressed codec would be nice. The bit-depth and chroma subsampling (or lack thereof) probably matter more to me than RAW per se, although I'm not sure that that feature by itself would lead me to upgrade.

I'm not sure I need more than 120fps, although 240 could be fun sometimes. I can already crop in on 4K for HD delivery and I prefer not to crop anyway. So I don't know that higher resolution is a big draw.

Right now I'm actually pricing out used A7III's. If I could get one for $1K, it might be a convenient C camera for the event coverage portions of a wedding shoot (the ceremony itself and the toasts). I would only need it to do 4K 24p. Use the same batteries and lenses as my other Sonys. Then I'd sell my GH5 and all other cameras, most of my EF lenses. Right now the A7III is trading for about $1400 on ebay. So, I guess I'm looking backwards not forwards
 
Yeah, for me, my next camera would have to have 6K or 8K at high resolutions and with RAW formats if I'm paying more than a thousand dollars for it.

FF and AF are a given, and maybe better IBIS.

Don't even need it, just the principle of spending the money.
 
ahalpert said:
The new releases from Canon and Nikon are giving me major camera envy. That being said, I'm not sure how soon I'll need more capabilities than what I can already do with the A7SIII and FX3. Which, of course, says more about the type of work I'm doing than the cameras themselves. My stuff usually isn't going to be given a lot of editing or color correction time. Small file sizes are preferred. Extra capabilities are always welcome and I'm sure that if I had internal RAW, I'd find occasion to use it. But it's not a must-have.

If they came out with an FX3 with eND, I think I'd have to buy it.

If they substantially improved the AF on future mirrorless cameras to the point where it was nailing the infrequent situations where my cameras currently struggle, then that would be a strong inducement to upgrade.

And a 12-bit 4:4:4 compressed codec would be nice. The bit-depth and chroma subsampling (or lack thereof) probably matter more to me than RAW per se, although I'm not sure that that feature by itself would lead me to upgrade.

I'm not sure I need more than 120fps, although 240 could be fun sometimes. I can already crop in on 4K for HD delivery and I prefer not to crop anyway. So I don't know that higher resolution is a big draw.

Right now I'm actually pricing out used A7III's. If I could get one for $1K, it might be a convenient C camera for the event coverage portions of a wedding shoot (the ceremony itself and the toasts). I would only need it to do 4K 24p. Use the same batteries and lenses as my other Sonys. Then I'd sell my GH5 and all other cameras, most of my EF lenses. Right now the A7III is trading for about $1400 on ebay. So, I guess I'm looking backwards not forwards
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Same here I have camera envy but I don't have the client type and work that generates income to warrant a purchase of any of these cameras.

Funny thing I was just looking at the A7III with the idea I could pick up something cheap. The days of finding deals on ebay are gone. I think the price will only fall after the A74 releases and those people start dumping.
NorBro said:
Yeah, for me, my next camera would have to have 6K or 8K at high resolutions and with RAW formats if I'm paying more than a thousand dollars for it.

FF and AF are a given, and maybe better IBIS.

Don't even need it, just the principle of spending the money.
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Preach
 
NorBro said:
Yeah, for me, my next camera would have to have 6K or 8K at high resolutions and with RAW formats if I'm paying more than a thousand dollars for it.

FF and AF are a given, and maybe better IBIS.

Don't even need it, just the principle of spending the money.
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is this a computer chip? the lit windows of an office building?

Screen Shot 2021-11-04 at 7.53.27 PM.png
 
Peter C. said:
Same here I have camera envy but I don't have the client type and work that generates income to warrant a purchase of any of these cameras.

Funny thing I was just looking at the A7III with the idea I could pick up something cheap. The days of finding deals on ebay are gone. I think the price will only fall after the A74 releases and those people start dumping.

Preach
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Yeah, that's how I feel about the FX6. I would love to trade my FS7 in for that, but none of the people I work for have even mentioned it. I still get specific requests for the FS7. I might even make less money if I switched that camera. Again, this says more about who my clients are and the fact that they're not clued in to this new camera.

Agreed re: A7iv - if people start selling a7iii's faster than people are buying them, we should be able to snag great deals. I was comparing it to the a7c and the a6600, but the a7iii still seems like the best option for my additional angle even though the a6600 has the price I want.

EDIT: Looking again - yeah, people complain about rolling shutter on the a6600. I think that was what sealed the deal for me, after considering if I could be happy with the noise levels and DOF (which I figured were ok for my C angle).

The a7iv is shipping Dec 30, so I figure that starting next January/February will be the best time to look on ebay for an a7iii
 
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