Panasonic Removable Lens Four Thirds HD AVCHD Camera

filmmaker's gang said:
very well.. how do you know all this?.. your crystal ball?.. or any secret Panny information from inside? lol

where did we hear it?.. :D great 4k camera slogan btw :beer:
Click to expand...

Why the sarcasm without a substantive contribution. We all know camera manufacturer's have become very secretive of actual measurements.

What we probably need is a way to do end-to-end MTF tests so we can develop this at different apertures or better, different illumination levels.

file.php


BTW, this link is record with an SR11, but to Cineform 4:2:2 via HDMI. I submit it as evidence that until the recording issue is addressed, the sensor and lens issues are secondary: http://vimeo.com/1082016
 
Kholi said:
... But it's been this way for decades? Real cameras...
Click to expand...

Has there been auto follow focus for shallow DOF cameras for decades? Not really. There has been auto focus for small sensor cameras with almost infinite DOF. And more than one of them doing its job pumping around when the object is going to move. Ore the focus jumps to an other object, while the camera is moving.

Now, this is a sistem with face recognition and object recognition that follows the marked object smoothly without getting irritated by other faces, people and objects. That is what it's said to be and if it works fine that would be the end of the job of the focus puller in many situations. (I also could imagine a function where the camera pulls the focus from one marked face to a second marked face in a determinated moment)

If and only IF it works that flawless as they say - it is an amazing tool that provides a lot of control for a singe DP.
 
You don't need auto focus, you just need practice. The intuitive nature of a focus puller will never be replaced by auto focus.

I can pull focus and handle a shoulder mounted RED at the same time... there's no real need for auto focus in a production environment, not even if it's guerilla. There only real return is practice and experience.
 
DavidNJ said:
Why the sarcasm without a substantive contribution. We all know camera manufacturer's have become very secretive of actual measurements.
Click to expand...
what sarcasm?.. to each his own.. my contribution here is just.. wondering about a march 2009 junior member who is so condescendent w/ new Panny products but not w/ the superior competition.. hey me said superior competition?.. quite bigger sensor size.. higher bitrate just for beginning.. :D in the meantime.. so focused and well informed about very secretive measurements.. also on the competition side btw ehehehehe
 
Last edited:
btw part2 and laughs aside.. how did you get these 5d mk2 figures?

" It does throw away 19% of the pixels, since 16x9 can only use 3159 rows. "
 
That is easy...the sensor is 5616 photo sites wide by 3744 high. However, 16:9 only would use 3159 rows high.

If Panasonic allows full uncompressed output on the HDMI port, it will be dramatic. If it doesn't, the door is wide open for Olympus or Samsung. The Samsung, with an APS-C sensor and the wide selection of high quality lenses, if it output uncompressed 4:2:2 video would probably be very impressive.

Alternatively, Canon is due for new prosumer video cameras. Maybe the XH2 will sport EF mount lenses and a full frame or APS sensor with HD-SDI output and high bandwidth MPEG4 Part 10, maybe even breaking from AVCHD to use maybe High 4:2:2 Profile, which also supports 10-bit color depth.
 
filmmaker's gang said:
very well.. how do you know all this?.. your crystal ball?.. or any secret Panny information from inside? lol
Click to expand...

Please be specific about what you think might be insider info, or whatever. I think I've been pretty clear. That the GH1 has a dual core processor was announced by panasonic when they announced it, that the GH1 has %33 more time to encode video is simple to calculate by the relative framerates of 24fps and 30fps.

That bitrate is only one factor in determining the quality of H.264 video is something that I have learned from experience, and delving pretty deep into video software development.

joe 1008 said:
Now, this is a sistem with face recognition and object recognition that follows the marked object smoothly without getting irritated by other faces, people and objects.
Click to expand...

As I understand it, reading the marketing site, the auto-focus doesn't follow other objects, but does follow faces in movie mode. In still mode it will track objects. This might be an error in the marketing or for some reason a feature choice, or I might have misread it. But I think for video, face tracking yes, but general object tracking no..... here's the site where I got that impression:
http://panasonic.net/avc/lumix/systemcamera/gms/gh1/index.html


filmmaker's gang said:
what sarcasm?.. to each his own.. my contribution here is just.. wondering about a march 2009 junior member who is so condescendent w/ new Panny products but not w/ the superior competition.. hey me said superior competition?.. quite bigger sensor size.. higher bitrate just for beginning.. :D in the meantime.. so focused and well informed about very secretive measurements.. also on the competition side btw ehehehehe
Click to expand...

Well, since you take it for granted, without having seen any video, that the 5D is superior to the GH1, there's not much point trying to debate that issue.

I'd be satisfied if you came to understand that bitrate does not determine quality.

DavidNJ said:
One comparison of an HDMI capture vs. AVCHD on an HV20 or SR11 (downloads of both available on vimeo) will show AVCHD does limit ability.
Click to expand...

Yes, of course, compression does not produce the same quality image as uncompressed. It would be great if cards had the capacity and cameras had the bandwidth and computers had the storage space to work uncompressed. IF you can get better quality capturing HDMI, then that's great for you. But compression is a fact of life, and on paper the GH1 bests the 5DmkII.

That Panasonic only posted those very low resolution clips 3 months before projected release date implies that not be the case.
Click to expand...

That's a non sequitor. The marketing clips are obviously designed for a marketing page and I bet the people who hose the resolution of those clips were web designers rather than even marketing people, let alone those focusing on the enthusiast market.

I hope Panasonic is doing something brilliant like Canon's move of hiring Vincent Laforte to shoot a promo video-- I'd love to see them release some steller footage from a professional to show what the camera is capable of.

But even if we don't, we will know the quality of the cameras footage when it comes, and no sooner.
 
Last edited:
LizaWitz said:
So, H.264 is giving AVCHD a better than 2:1 efficiency advantage over the MPEG-2 video in HDV according to Sony. I'm sure they have a good basis for saying that. As a rule of thumb, 2:1 is the ratio I use, but of course video compression is an art.
Click to expand...
Depends on the bandwidth. The advantage of AVC over MPEG grows bigger and bigger the smaller you squeeze the bandwidth. So, 4mbps of AVC would probably easily trounce 15mbps of MPEG2, I bet that 4:1 ratio is completely believable. But by the time you juice MPEG-2 up to 25mbps, you'd need 9mbps of AVC, a 2.5:1 ratio. And at 35mbps of MPEG-2, in interlaced, you'd need 17mbps of AVC, for a 2:1 ratio.

When the bandwidth pipe is fat enough, any compression system will perform well enough; so at 400mbps of AVC and 400mbps of MPEG-2, like for like, you probably wouldn't see any difference. But the more you squeeze the pipe down, the more you limit the bandwidth, the more the better compression algorithm is going to shine.
 
But compression is a fact of life, and on paper the GH1 bests the 5DmkII.
Click to expand...
Alchemy? One is 17Mb/s, the other over 40Mb/s. The point of showing the HDMI, which is still compressed to around 100Mb/s when recorded, is that the recording is the limiting factor, not the camera. If it was the camera, the 5DM2 would own the GH-1, just as it (and most other full frame cameras) own all 4/3rd and nearly all APC cameras, at least of the same technology generation.

And yes, as the bandwidth increases, compression means less and less.

The 17Mb/s was a limitation from times past...before the existance of Class 6 SDHC or x133 Compact Flash. However, if the HDMI output works like a camcorder and not like a 5DM2.

I posted some SX1 video links. The US$1500 GH-1 would have to beat those from the US$600 SX1; at 17Mb/s I doubt it will. At 45Mb/s it would challenge the 5DM2.
 
I don't claim to know much about anything....but if I'm understanding what Liz and maybe some others are suggesting then the 45 Mbps on the Canon is not the only factor for IQ. If the camera is throwing away more than half its picture to begin with (by skipping pixels etc.) then it is already limiting itself in terms of what it could actually do if they didn't use this method. It would be like "garbage in-garbage out"....right? Who knows if the picture would still look the same if they outputted @ 17Mbps instead of the 45. But if Panasonic is actually using all of its pixels to make its final image....then at 17 Mbps it can actually rival or even look better than the full frame Canon. Am I correct in thinking this way?

The use of cameras with more than 17Mbps is still brand spanking new. So pretty much most of us know what to expect. For example...one of the cams that was used in the upcoming "Crank2" movie, the HF10, has a superb picture and it only peaks at 17Mbps. There are still cams coming out today that held on to a 17Mbps peak. But when we talk about a cam like this new Panasonic, with its superior sensor compared to the handycams, I think there are some folks up in arms about the data rate used. I wouldn't be surprised if the picture turns out to be the best we've seen from any DSLR (though this cam is not really a DSLR....but that' a whole other discussion I guess).

This is where we all exercise some patience and wait for a suitable demo video. Here's hoping on IQ.
 
Let's get back to real theory and experimental evidence.

Experimental:


  1. The 5D Mark II produces tremendous contrast and detail in both picture edge sharpness and texture detail. 40-45 Mb/s AVCHD
  2. The SX1 with the same encoding produces very contrast and picture edge sharpness and fair texture detail. 40-45 Mb/s AVCHD
  3. The HMC150 is approximately the same quality as 720p24 HPX170 DVCProHD. 25Mb/s AVCHD with CABAC vs. 40Mb intraframe compression.
  4. Small sensor, cheap lens camcorders see a dramatic improvement in contrast and picture edge sharpness going from 17Mb/s AVCHD to 100Mb/s Cineform. (17Mb/s AVCHD vs. 100Mb/s Cineform).

Theory:


  1. There are different options in encoding that require increased processor power. Canon has recording limitations because their processor can overheat.
  2. Panasonic made specific allowance for increased processing power.
  3. Class 6 SDHC can handle 45Mb/s, there is no technical reason to limit the data stream to 17Mb/s, at least in a $1500 camera.
  4. At increased bandwidths compressing quality is less important.

And finally, my read on the situation:


  1. While Panasonic may use 17Mb/s more effectively than some other camcorders, I doubt it is more than 10-20% advantage and way under an adequate amount.
  2. 40Mb/s AVCHD from the Canon seems awfully close to 100Mb/s Cineform form from HDMI from other cameras.
  3. Texture detail appears to be a combination of sensor resolution (only an issue with early camcorders), lens (an issue with most camcorders and small sensor cameras) and recording effectiveness.

For myself, the Canon 5DM2 is the first camera I've seen (and SX1 may be the second) that I didn't think HDMI or HD-SDI capture was critical. While I haven't seen the GH=1 output, I have seen nothing in the specs that leads me to believe its AVCHD will produce the high quality image of increased bandwidth.

The big factor may be does it output uncompressed HDMI during filming.
 
Ian T -- Yeah, I get what Liza is saying as well. It's similar, in thought, to the argument between EX-1's XDCAM Codec and DVCproHD.

Where you're recording a full raster image with the XDCAM Codec @ so and so bitrate, the 4:2:0 is about as similar as the DVCproHD 4:2:2 in the end.

It's not THAT argument, but it's kinda like that.

It'll be really interesting to see some footage from this camera. The 720P file I downloaded from that site wasn't all that impressive but also didn't show much wobble/skew when they were zooming in.

Also still interested in HDMI output. Could be a really killer camera, man.
 
Not very representative. I am looking for an XDCAM EX comparison with HD-SDI from the same camera. Still looking though.
 
We have video! And despite one pre-production bug, I have to say, regarding video:

I'm calling it here first. The GH1 makes the 5D obsolete. In fact, it makes every camera and camcorder on the market right now for under $5,000 obsolete. It produces better image quality than the 5D, it has better DOF than any camcorder, and it has full manual control, unlike the DSLRs. It has interchangeable lenses, unlike the camcorders.

Really the only question was whether it shot great video or not-- and now we know.

NO MORE JELLO CAM! Yes, you can actually pan with the camera! You can move it around and get rock steady video that doesn't look like you're shooting thru a lens made of gelatin! Try that with a 5D mk II!

Ok, enough ranting. Like I said there is a bug evident in the footage, some banding at the end. I believe this is going to be an easy thing to fix.

Focusing test, which includes downloadable footage from the camera:
http://www.slashgear.com/panasonic-...-hands-on-–-af-and-manual-mode-tests-0736780/

Hands on Demo-- check at the end of the page for a good description of the camera from the panasonic rep.
http://www.slashgear.com/panasonic-micro-43-dmc-gh1-hands-on-gets-video-intro-0536516/#

I'm pretty happy right now-- I was worried it would have the jello problem. Whew!
 
Last edited:
Ian-T said:
the 45 Mbps on the Canon is not the only factor for IQ.
Click to expand...

Absolutely. Mbps is an inexpensive substitute for computing horsepower, especially if you are already using CF cards which have bandwidth to burn.

The final image quality out of any video camera = Sensor IQ * Image Preprossessing IQ * Compression Effort * Bandwidth.

If any of these go near zero, your images suck. IF all of these stay good, your images will rock. If one of them is half of normal, and the other is 2 times normal, you can recover quite a bit, and that is the effect of substituting CPU horsepower for bandwidth, or vise-versa.

(though this cam is not really a DSLR....but that' a whole other discussion I guess).
Click to expand...

I kinda like the acronym "EVIL": Electronic Viewfinder, Interchangeable Lens.

This is where we all exercise some patience and wait for a suitable demo video. Here's hoping on IQ.
Click to expand...

My only real worry was whether the sensor had the CMOS rolling shutter issue the DSLRs have exhibited, and from the sample video we now have, its pretty clear that's not the case.

Of course, the good news is, hopefully Panasonic will take this technology and put it in their pro and prosumer camcorders with all the nicer features (and higher bandwidth, etc) that people want..... I don't know how divided the divisions are in that company but I think this could result in some really compelling cinema cameras across all price points for them.

DVX-GH1 anyone?
 
Last edited:
They had one clip converted to 720p24 and less than 2Mb/s. It wasn't anything to write home about.

None of the tests would say 'no jello' since that is an inherit artifact of a rolling shutter. Ditto the skew. I can't even imagine a way to digitally remove it since the part of the image moved and part is obscured that wasn't previously obscured.

A real clip would be as recorded, preferably with the recording info (image size, frame rate, shutter speed, aperture, gain, other settings such has gamma, color correction, and recording speed specified). I would settle for one without it.

So far there is no evidence that there is a magic that makes 17Mb/s better that 40Mb/s.

P.S.
The voice over says you can't change the aperture while recording while the shooter IS changing the aperture.

P.P.S.
If I thought this camera matched a 5DM2 I would literally be first in line.

P.P.P.S.
These are links to SX1 footage:
http://vimeo.com/3077524
http://vimeo.com/2504489
http://vimeo.com/2599995
http://vimeo.com/3213681
http://vimeo.com/3318970
http://vimeo.com/3211876

Most have raw footage downloads.

These are 5DM2:
http://vimeo.com/2790773
http://vimeo.com/3342835
http://vimeo.com/2764088

Note both the edge sharpness and texture detail on the 5DM2, the sharpness on the US$600 SX1. EX1/EX3 footage looks like slightly soft 5DM2 footage.
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top