PRE PRODUCTION HPX300 Hands On 'review'

Youre right of course Barry, but not so long ago its wasnt much more than the USD price. Aussie actually went over USD like 1.02 USD for $1 AUD, so now of course we are biting it hard as all prices are up around 30-40%.

As I said in another thread because of dollar - in real terms I would get about 40% less on the global market, but here in Aus I can resale just about everything I own for the price I paid. Not like Im going to though, you would have to stab me 10 times and cute me in to small pieces to get the 500 out of my hands. Actually presently I could sell my camera and still afford 2 300s even at the steep price. My lens would cover one and camera body the other (when you factor in I already have all the support equipment needed for this format). Interesting thought, but as I said cold dead hands. As I have said millions of times in the past, I was prepared to forgo HD in favour of 2/3 inch chips, but I got a better deal in the end. 500 shoots superb 720 and with VFR and with those lovely chips. So of course many of my posts reflect this.
 
Last edited:
I think the most expensive hpx 300 will be in here(Turkey). I swear it will not be less then 12.000$ + %18 tax.(:(
 
Jan_Crittenden said:
So the take away on this is learning how to control the tool you have been given so that you can get the shot you are supposed to get. Filmmakers have been doing this all of their professional lives. There is just one more tool in the tool belt now.
Click to expand...

I'm sorry but come on Jan. The idea that the problems associated with rolling shutter on the cmos sensor should be associated with "learning how to control the tool you have been given" is insulting. That would be like Canon saying that backfocus issues on the original xl1 were simply a limitation that had to be compensated for.

I understand that full raster HD is something to drool over, but I personally would have been much happier with lower pixel count and a ccd global shutter. This so called new tool is a great option if you plan on always shooting wide on a tripod doing sitdown interviews in tugnsten light. Especially if you admit the fact that the skewing is just as bad as the EX1 / EX3. Having shot with the cameras, I saw the limitations with the chip set. The fact is if the camera moves too fast (which takes out crazy handheld), A flash goes off (sorry WEVA), or heaven forbid a live gun flash (SFX programs love CMOS), this camera is not a tool that I could use.

Maybe thats the true limitation of the camera. Honestly, why should we settle for a camera with higher native res that simply cannot live up to the name and quality that I have seen throughout the panasonic line. I am simply tired of this idea that resolution is the end-all be-all descision when buying a camera.

Yes AVC-Intra is a great codec. But Skew and Wobble at a high bitrate is still Skew and Wobble.

Listen, If i gave the best neurosurgeon a Butter knife and told him to take out a tumor, chances are that it's not going to end well.

Please stop trying to pin the problem of rolling shutter on the operator. It is something that can be avoided, but for me the limitations of CMOS outweigh any benefit to be found in AVC-Intra at full raster.
 
ImpossibleBishop said:
Please stop trying to pin the problem of rolling shutter on the operator. It is something that can be avoided, but for me the limitations of CMOS outweigh any benefit to be found in AVC-Intra at full raster.
Click to expand...

Yes it can be avoided, its called the avcintra board for the hpx2000 or the hpx2700 for 720p or the hpx3700 for 1080p shooting.

To me, If one can live with the limitation of a rolling shutter cmos camera, one be better served with just buying a low cost $3000 camera (e.g. Canon A1) or the $6000 EX1 now and wait till the cmos Red Scarlet to hit the market in 1 - 2 years. With the hpx300, you will have to invest in pro batt + charger and p2 card. Whereby you can get away with cheap sd card and express card adapter for the EX.

In 1 to 2 years time, a fully functional 2/3" cmos, 3k resolution, fixed 8x lens, 10 bit RAW Scarlet has an MSRP of only $3750. Imagine the resale/market value of the hpx300, EX3, EX1 then. Yes, if you are an independent shooter/cam owner, this matter applies to you. However, if you are constantly renting and pimping out your gear and you can make your money back , then it is a whole other story. Get the hpx300 and start making your money NOW.

Regardless, any cmos camera IMHO has only a 1-2 year shelf life until the Scarlet comes out and torches everythiing away. When this happens, at least your CCD camera will still stand tall without any of the CMOS undesirable weaknesses. Just my 2 cents. Take it for whatever it's worth.
 
The zebras looked good im sure. But the background?
You were panning with the zebras. If you weren't im sure it would have looked alot different.
 
I still reckon it will all come down to price point - $8.5k US is a fantastic price...

If Panasonic does not absorb some of the exchange rates here in Oz and NZ etc...

They will just sit on the shelf... we all want one but in these economic times it's all about the $$$...

Clients who expect a shoulder mount full ENG style camera are being serviced by people you already own a such a camera...

Clients that are happy with results coming from the 200/170 etc are not expecting you to turn up with a new ENG camera... they're already happy...

So it's just us wanting a new toy that we expect will deliver better pictures than what we're already capturing... at a reasonable price...

Perception of value is half the price...

Cheers
LeZ
 
To be honest, I think Panasonic would be better off by not producing the hpx300 at all, instead they could have just offered an AVC-Intra Codec Board upgrade for the 2/3" CCD hpx-500.
 
hello every one im from argentina and i´m very new at this. I was wandering what camera could i buy for my film proyects and to make mone for a living. my mother offerd me for the first time only to buy me my first camera. i have a budget of 12k US dollars.

What should i buy thanks everyone.
 
shapna said:
hello every one im from argentina and i´m very new at this. I was wandering what camera could i buy for my film proyects and to make mone for a living. my mother offerd me for the first time only to buy me my first camera. i have a budget of 12k US dollars.

What should i buy thanks everyone.
Click to expand...

great post :D
only one answer: Panasonic 170
 
mmnnhh does the 170 have really better improvements than the 200?? cause for what i read it doesnt change too much.
 
LuckyStudio 13 said:
To me, If one can live with the limitation of a rolling shutter cmos camera, one be better served with just buying a low cost $3000 camera (e.g. Canon A1) or the $6000 EX1 now and wait till the cmos Red Scarlet to hit the market in 1 - 2 years. With the hpx300, you will have to invest in pro batt + charger and p2 card. Whereby you can get away with cheap sd card and express card adapter for the EX.
Click to expand...

I think there is always going to be a bigger better camera out there. Let's face it the camera market is becoming like the PC market.. in 2 years your camera won't be top of the line anymore - no matter what camera you have. When the Scarlet finally comes around then maybe you'll want that.. or maybe you'll want to wait 2 more years for the Maroon with twice the resolution at half the price. The point is if you need a camera now, then buy the camera that works for you now.

At less then $10k the HPX300 delivers a great image and comes with a lens. It's a shoulder mount camera that shoots to a great format. If you think you have a project that needs that then buy it, or you think you can make money as a freelance shooter with it then buy it. If you are in the business of buying these things just for the pure technical joy then... I wish I was you.
 
LuckyStudio 13 said:
To me, If one can live with the limitation of a rolling shutter cmos camera, one be better served with just buying a low cost $3000 camera (e.g. Canon A1) or the $6000 EX1 now and wait till the cmos Red Scarlet to hit the market in 1 - 2 years. With the hpx300, you will have to invest in pro batt + charger and p2 card. Whereby you can get away with cheap sd card and express card adapter for the EX.

In 1 to 2 years time, a fully functional 2/3" cmos, 3k resolution, fixed 8x lens, 10 bit RAW Scarlet has an MSRP of only $3750. Imagine the resale/market value of the hpx300, EX3, EX1 then.
Click to expand...

Well I cant say I agree. Firstly due to the fact that for $3750 you will not have an operational Scarlet.

Then, look at the ergonomics of the 300, its a shoulder mount cam, ENG, sports, events etc. No one will shoot those with a scarlet. Also its a ready to go cam, battery on - check, p2 in -check. There is nothing else. Also its a dual purpose cam, go ahead and shoot those things I mention, then go ahead and shoot that narrative stuff in the middle.

My point is the 300 is an Orange, sure a new apple might take some interest but it still isnt an orange.

The EX v 300 argument is one people will need to decipher for themselves. But Id rather shoot full raster to AVCIntra on 1/3". Well Id rather shoot full raster to AVCIntra to 1/2", but thats not an option.
 
Noel Evans said:
Then, look at the ergonomics of the 300, its a shoulder mount cam, ENG, sports, events etc. No one will shoot those with a scarlet.
Click to expand...

No one should shoot any of these with the 300 either. Lets see...

on the shoulder, so maybe some shaking after a while from fatigue = Skew and Wobble

ENG? ok maybe for interviews...

Sports? Too much movement... will skew if you go too far on the telephoto...

Events? Anybody taking a photo? Cuz you just lost your shot. Any time a high speed flash goes off, you have a strange banding effect talked about in The DVXuser Article about cmos.

Oh and I hope you weren't planning on shooting with available light that are flourescents... might not go so well...
 
ImpossibleBishop said:
No one should shoot any of these with the 300 either. Lets see...

on the shoulder, so maybe some shaking after a while from fatigue = Skew and Wobble

ENG? ok maybe for interviews...

Sports? Too much movement... will skew if you go too far on the telephoto...

Events? Anybody taking a photo? Cuz you just lost your shot. Any time a high speed flash goes off, you have a strange banding effect talked about in The DVXuser Article about cmos.

Oh and I hope you weren't planning on shooting with available light that are flourescents... might not go so well...
Click to expand...

Valid points. Ill hold judgement til we see what comes out the back end.
 
ImpossibleBishop said:
I'm sorry but come on Jan. The idea that the problems associated with rolling shutter on the cmos sensor should be associated with "learning how to control the tool you have been given" is insulting. That would be like Canon saying that backfocus issues on the original xl1 were simply a limitation that had to be compensated for.
Click to expand...


So you are saying that you don't have to figure out how to control any tool you are using? This isn't a design flaw as the back-focus issue was, this is the nature of the imager. Big difference. You either need to figure out how to work with it or suffer the consequences of not. Mayn of the folks that shoot on the EX1 have figured it out and the folks that buy this camera will too.

Maybe thats the true limitation of the camera. Honestly, why should we settle for a camera with higher native res that simply cannot live up to the name and quality that I have seen throughout the panasonic line. I am simply tired of this idea that resolution is the end-all be-all descision when buying a camera.
Click to expand...

And it is what I have said all along, resolution isn't everything but there is a part of the market that feels that they want more resolution. Believe me, when they asked if I wanted the CMOS, I said no, I would reather battle the resolution issue with lower resolution CCDS. I was out-voted. That said, you can make some very nice pictutres with this camera, read the stuff that Barry and Kevin are saying. Did they find issues with CMOS, yes, but I would be that this is the first time that Kevin has shot with a CMOS and for Barry, well he has but never at these zoom lengths and never with an I-fram codec, which makes some difference, but not with the rolling shutter. The rolling shutter is the rolling shutter.

Yes AVC-Intra is a great codec. But Skew and Wobble at a high bitrate is still Skew and Wobble.
Click to expand...

It is more controllable than you think, but I do understand your concerns, they are mine as well.

Please stop trying to pin the problem of rolling shutter on the operator. It is something that can be avoided, but for me the limitations of CMOS outweigh any benefit to be found in AVC-Intra at full raster.
Click to expand...

If you took what I said as it being the problem with the operator, think again. No it is a limitation of the tool. Just like you can't shoot a picket fence with a film camera at a perpendicular angle. If you want to use film you need to find another way to to shoot the picket fence. It is the nature of the CMOS imager to be what it is, learn to work with it or don't go there. We have plenty of CCD cameras to choose from.

Best,

Jan
 
Not to be a nuissance, since I've posted too much these past days with the excitement of the announcement, but I think that, at least now, its not the time to immediately jump for a new tool.

When I went for the HVX200 (original) I researched a heck of a lot, debated here with Barry and the others, and sometimes the reasoning and debate was heated- never on personal insult level, mind you, but in a way where everyone's personal's P.O.V., convictions and perspectives where challenged.

I really liked Jan's honesty and frankness on this last post. It really says a lot about her approach to the community. Thanks for being here with us, Jan- no ass kissing, here- that's just not in my nature.

I was one of the first here- Hong-Kong and Macau- to purchase the HVX200. I was praticaly a pioneer, helping out with the fellows from Pana HK with workflow and exchanging opinions- they even used a demo of low light footage I shot (that I posted here a looong time ago) on their showroom, so I've always been friendly and have all but good things to say about Panasonic's costumer support and equipment.

Back then (2004?) the HVX was the best camera on the price range. Resolution isn't, and wasn't everything, and the awards documentaries, TVC's shorts, and feature films shot with this little cam prove it . Let me tell this not only as an independent filmmaker, but as someone that shoots also for television. Television, even High Def TV broadcast, is merely 1080i- heck the majority of the broadcast world- CNN, BBC, etc still broadcast SD. The HVX resolution is more than enough for most applications. In my opinion, Pixel shifting just worked. The image is excelent and, due to the excelent codec, color wise, it smoked the competition.The hvx camera introduced me to the tapeless world. It was a good school, and now its seamless to me- everyone is playing catchup to Panasonic in this department.

Now, however, we are in different times. The HPX300 plays very similar to what the HVX200 did on the "Democratization of HD", back in 2004 with the introduction of the DVCPRO HD at the price range of DV. They try to do the same with the introduction of D5/ HDCAM SR - ok, I exagerate a bit here- equivalent codec (AVCINTRA) at the HDV price range. It sounds like a match winning combination, but there's something, IMO, that Panasonic neglected here: top codecs have also been democratized with the introduction of recorders like the FLash XDR. While its still a great deal to get a Flash XDR quality codec in camera, the truth is, this can be achievable with competing cameras that have inferior codecs, but better attributes, like the XDCAM EX3 with its 1/2 chips- add the XDR recorder and you can have very close to AVCINTRA quality footage from the cameras 10bit HD-SDI out, but with the added plus of native 1/2 chips. Some will argue that this adds to the overall price of the system. Certainly. But Chip size, wich translates to dinamic range, low light performance as well as shallower DOF and, of course, media Price (CF cards vs P2) are very important elements for a purchase, also.

Basically, what this means, at least to me, is that, back then, at the time of the HVX200 introduction, even with the debates of the macroblocking, non native HD chips, pixel shift, etc, the HVX200, with its tapeless workflow, variable frame rates, cinegamma, DVCPRO HD and 1080p/720p switchability made it heads and shoulders above the competition. The HPX300, however, is not as clear a winner- at least on paper. Competitors copied every single winning element of Panasonics approach, from the frame rates, the tapeless workflow, even the cinegamma (with questionable results here, however).

There's something I really would like to see now- that's Canon's answer. The 5d mark 2 is now being "cracked" by people trying to get 25p and manual controls. I believe this should be easily achievable. This will make the small, cheap DSLR a true filmmaking tool. What will they follow up with on the Video department? Also, what about Nikon? Will they capitalize on a market that has practicaly helped the ressurrection of their old SLR lenses? And, of course, how about the Scarlet? 2009 will present the introduction of many new and interesting products, I'm sure. I'm perfectly fine with my CCD "Low rez "HVX200 non "a" untill I see everyone show their "hand"this year, either at NAB, or in August (Canon's usual press conference).

However, I'll definitely have a look at the HPX300. I have all but praise to say about Panasonic cameras: they are the best I've ever used, and my international TVC's were all shot with them. I hope to be pleasantly surprised by this, and I'll be sure to stretch it to see if it suits my needs or not. The TVC's I shoot are of Motorsports and, sometimes, even fireworks. Also, I live in a Neon and flourescent light rich city- anyone who has been around HK and macau know what I'm talking about- so CMOS scares me. If this is the future, I sincerely hope that Panasonic took these shooting conditions into consideration while designing this cam...
 
SPZ said:
I really liked Jan's honesty and frankness on this last post. It really says a lot about her approach to the community. Thanks for being here with us, Jan- no ass kissing, here- that's just not in my nature.
Click to expand...

None taken. ;-)

It sounds like a match winning combination, but there's something, IMO, that Panasonic neglected here: top codecs have also been democratized with the introduction of recorders like the FLash XDR.
Click to expand...

The codec in the Flash is an old MPEG2 codec and if you inadvertaently lose power during record you have a huge problem on you hands, actually it isn't a huge problem it is just a loss of footage. With P2 the rcording is closed every 2 seconds so that if you lose power the most you will lose is t 2 second. YOu would have to have the camera or P2 Portable repair the clip, but you would still have most of what you recorded.


While its still a great deal to get a Flash XDR quality codec in camera, the truth is, this can be achievable with competing cameras that have inferior codecs, but better attributes, like the XDCAM EX3 with its 1/2 chips- add the XDR recorder and you can have very close to AVCINTRA quality footage from the cameras 10bit HD-SDI out,
Click to expand...

You could get very close to the HPX300 by adding an AG-HPG20 and P2 cads to the kit, that would make the EX1/3 a very similar product, just not in form factlr but quality factor yes.


Basically, what this means, at least to me, is that, back then, at the time of the HVX200 introduction, even with the debates of the macroblocking, non native HD chips, pixel shift, etc, the HVX200, with its tapeless workflow, variable frame rates, cinegamma, DVCPRO HD and 1080p/720p switchability made it heads and shoulders above the competition. The HPX300, however, is not as clear a winner- at least on paper. Competitors copied every single winning element of Panasonics approach, from the frame rates, the tapeless workflow, even the cinegamma (with questionable results here, however).
Click to expand...

But you have not even held the camera, or "played" with it. It is a clear winner. Will it outperform the other guys camera, it comes very close in virtually every area that you mentioned, and then it has the form factor and lots of other funtionality that the other guy does not have. And while they do have a tapless workfolw, I do not feel that it has the flexibility of P2, the only codec they can record on the SxS is XDCAM EX. On P2< I can do DV , DVCPRO, DVCPRO50, DVCPRO HD, AVC-Intra. And all of those formats are in this camera. The camera is more than a one-trick pony.


There's something I really would like to see now- that's Canon's answer. The 5d mark 2 is now being "cracked" by people trying to get 25p and manual controls. I believe this should be easily achievable.
Click to expand...

But it too is a CMOS imager and for a run and gun shoot camera, it has all sorts of challanges. The only response that I would expect from Canon is from the group that makes the XL-H1.

However, I'll definitely have a look at the HPX300. I have all but praise to say about Panasonic cameras: they are the best I've ever used, and my international TVC's were all shot with them. I hope to be pleasantly surprised by this, and I'll be sure to stretch it to see if it suits my needs or not. The TVC's I shoot are of Motorsports and, sometimes, even fireworks. Also, I live in a Neon and flourescent light rich city- anyone who has been around HK and macau know what I'm talking about- so CMOS scares me. If this is the future, I sincerely hope that Panasonic took these shooting conditions into consideration while designing this cam...
Click to expand...

I undestand that CMOS scares you. I haven't found all of the cirumstances that it raises its hand to let you know that it is a CMOS and it will take customers talking about it and using it to really find them all. Please post anything you find.

Best,

Jan
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top