Red Ruination Blue - a production blog

Zak Forsman said:
...maybe if I had them get back together, you could say I was trying to push this belief that "love conquers all". but we all know that's unrealistic. anyway, you didn't see a point, because I wasn't trying to convince you of anything.
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Sounds like a message to me...

I'm looking forward to reading about how you apply what you learned last time around, Adam, to this new process...
 
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Mark Harris said:
Sounds like a message to me...
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haha, well the film doesn't say "love doesn't conquer all" either. good filmmaking, I believe (but wouldn't make a film about it :Drogar-Love(DBG): ), is presenting a fully-realized and balanced thematic argument, as an honest exploration of the views I hold. which is the more effective experience?... the ramifications of gun violence as depicted in Bowling for Columbine, or as depicted in Unforgiven? I find Bowling for Columbine's manipulations (to prove its message) very off-putting. While I find Unforgiven to have much more compelling insights.
 
Adam or anyone else who may know...In that Article was a mention about a German Tax Construction that was popular from the 90`s. I have heard mention of that a couple of times but never found the whole story of how it actually worked.

Apparently it was some sort of lease back scheme...Any information on this whether or not those rules still apply or not would be very interesting to read about.

Anyone have a clue about it?


DogDay.
 
ESTEBEVERDE said:
You live in a fantasy world.
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No I don't. No further debating / arguing / bickering needed.


ESTEBEVERDE said:
But, you might find a better use of your time is creating what you do love and the message you do want to send.
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I make art / films because of a true love and passion for storytelling. The market, money and things of this nature are not of my concern. I make a nice living outside the realm of the entertainment industry, so I do not have to worry myself with the nags of "will this thing make money?"

there is an old saying and it applies to just about every aspect in life.... if you do what you truly love and what makes you happy, the money will come (I know thats prolly a mis-quote but you see what I'm getting at)



and Adam, thanks for the kind words.... I wish no no ill will / vibes whatsoever.... I'm very interested in seeing how RRB unfolds.
 
dogday, I believe it's dead. don't know the particulars but this is how Uwe Boll was financing his films up until a year or two ago.
 
Zak Forsman said:
concentrating on you in your adult life, you are talking about films that reinforced held beliefs. i want to know what films persuaded a change in you. and I wouldn't classify any of them as a "message" film on the level of something like Bowling for Columbine or The Life of David Gale. Ghandi and Cry Freedom, if memory serves, are more complex than that. this is what i'm talking about: a film driven by a message has an agenda to change minds. and i don't think a film is a good vehicle for that, beyond preaching to the choir.

and of course films have themes. as I've said three or four hundred times in this thread. :) the fabric of a good film is a weaving of balanced thematic elements into a narrative thread. i'm suggesting this does not necessarily designate that the film has a "message" its trying to prove thru artificial contructs. Crash, for example, was clearly a message film setting up straw man arguments along the way to prove a supposed "truth".

that's all i'm saying.

my own short, i don't even want to talk about. its success is based purely on entertainment value and the fact that it resonated emotionally true for many people. there is no message at work. maybe if I had them get back together, you could say I was trying to push this belief that "love conquers all". but we all know that's unrealistic. anyway, you didn't see a point, because I wasn't trying to convince you of anything.
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Zak Forsman said:
concentrating on you in your adult life, you are talking about films that reinforced held beliefs. i want to know what films persuaded a change in you. and I wouldn't classify any of them as a "message" film on the level of something like Bowling for Columbine or The Life of David Gale. Ghandi and Cry Freedom, if memory serves, are more complex than that. this is what i'm talking about: a film driven by a message has an agenda to change minds. and i don't think a film is a good vehicle for that, beyond preaching to the choir.

and of course films have themes. as I've said three or four hundred times in this thread. :) the fabric of a good film is a weaving of balanced thematic elements into a narrative thread. i'm suggesting this does not necessarily designate that the film has a "message" its trying to prove thru artificial contructs. Crash, for example, was clearly a message film setting up straw man arguments along the way to prove a supposed "truth".

that's all i'm saying.

my own short, i don't even want to talk about. its success is based purely on entertainment value and the fact that it resonated emotionally true for many people. there is no message at work. maybe if I had them get back together, you could say I was trying to push this belief that "love conquers all". but we all know that's unrealistic. anyway, you didn't see a point, because I wasn't trying to convince you of anything.
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Semantics.

All I can say is that most films that do have themes do so with an intended or an imparted message.

A movie that changed my mind.

No joke.

MILK.

For real.

I voted against prop 8 based on human rights.

Now I am even more so against prop 8 but on the level that same sex couples should absolutely have the right to marry on a humanistic not just legalistic level.

Film is one of the most powerful mediums ever invented and whether the film is based on thrown together themes or an intended message woven together by themes there are imparted meanings and messaged none the less.

Semantics.


As to your film I think my earlier interpretation stands very solid with your supporting evidence.

Perhaps you can give an example of other films that don't have messages?


I think that what you merely call a theme we are calling a message and what you are calling a message is a heavy handed block headed attempt at getting ones point across.

To that end I agree that one's message should be wrapped in the most beautifully done packages.


In all sincerity though I very much appreciate hearing your point of view and trying to learn from it. :beer:
 
Zak Forsman said:
haha, well the film doesn't say "love doesn't conquer all" either. good filmmaking, I believe (but wouldn't make a film about it :Drogar-Love(DBG): ), is presenting a fully-realized and balanced thematic argument, as an honest exploration of the views I hold. which is the more effective experience?... the ramifications of gun violence as depicted in Bowling for Columbine, or as depicted in Unforgiven? I find Bowling for Columbine's manipulations (to prove its message) very off-putting. While I find Unforgiven to have much more compelling insights.
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Well, I don't totally agree about Unforgiven, because at the end of it all, someone wrote it and decided what would happen in it. It may have an A story and a B story with different aspects of gun violence, but at the end, someone made a decision about what to say about it. And it's message throughout I think is pretty clear. the themes in both stories are the same: pitting the image against the reality. But the message falls squarely on the reality side.

But it's not like the movie was some process where no one knew what the end would be, thus what the movie would say.

I think Bowling's sins are more sins of Ham-fistedness.

You can communicate a message well, like Unforgiven, or poorly, like Bowling. But I think Adam was right, you will be very hard pressed to find any good movie, or work of art at all, that's not trying to say something. It's kind of what separates art from life, applying meaning to things that don't seem to have any in life.
 
hoofandmouf said:
No I don't. No further debating / arguing / bickering needed.

.....
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SOLD!

Enjoy the protections that others afford you.



hoofandmouf said:
...

I make art / films because of a true love and passion for storytelling. The market, money and things of this nature are not of my concern. I make a nice living outside the realm of the entertainment industry, so I do not have to worry myself with the nags of "will this thing make money?"

there is an old saying and it applies to just about every aspect in life.... if you do what you truly love and what makes you happy, the money will come (I know thats prolly a mis-quote but you see what I'm getting at)

.....
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Right...

And that is great.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with that and everything right about it. :thumbsup:


BUT.... isn't Adam afforded the same choices to make what he wants how he wants why he wants?

Isn't his very personal choice how to spend his time and resources?



Personally I watch very very little narrative anymore and when I do it is much more arthousey than not.

In fact I almost exclusively go to the local arthouse to see movies!

But I would never say to someone that they can't exercise their freedom of speech nor would I interfere with thier art or commerce.

...
 
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Zak Forsman said:
haha, well the film doesn't say "love doesn't conquer all" either. good filmmaking, I believe (but wouldn't make a film about it :Drogar-Love(DBG): ), is presenting a fully-realized and balanced thematic argument, as an honest exploration of the views I hold. which is the more effective experience?... the ramifications of gun violence as depicted in Bowling for Columbine, or as depicted in Unforgiven? I find Bowling for Columbine's manipulations (to prove its message) very off-putting. While I find Unforgiven to have much more compelling insights.
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See.... Semantics.


Both films are message laden!


To me film truly is at the end of the day just one big complicated Rorschach inkblot test! :grin:


I have't seen bowling for Columbine because Michael Moore is an unapologetic and uncreative propagandists.


There are things that he does that I love but on the whole he is full of shyte.


As my 15 year old says often when people are trying to talk to him.


"Not Funny"

"Not Interesting"


And then walks away... :beer:
 
Uwe is pretty approuchable and forth coming so thanks Zak for the tip. I will see what else I can dig up.

If anyone else has any idea of how it actually worked please share it.


DogDay.
 
Every work of art has something to say. I hope. my understanding of "a film with a message" is one of evangelism -- the intention to sway minds and make converts of its audience. Unforgiven doesn't evangelize the way Crash, or David Gale or Bowling do. I think they are "ham-fisted" because they are pushing a singular idea. Unforgiven's themes aren't singular in their point of view as they are in the latter three. there's a dialogue of ideas playing out in most compelling art, sometimes in conflict, sometimes in harmony. that's how, I feel, a compelling thematic structure is separate and very different from a film intended to convince me of something's rightness.

mark, I nearly agree with you on the purpose of art but for one difference. having an artist tell me what the meaning of something is, is much less interesting then allowing the spectator to determine its meaning and relevance, embracing the subjective nature of cinema. the latter sparks discussion, the former is a one-way communication that ends with a big "so what?".

anyway, I think a better word for what I'm calling a "film with a message" is evangelism.

I made a film where one of its many threads deal with abortion. I don't want to reveal the specifics of what happens yet because it hasn't been released, but it sure as hell isn't about me telling you whether abortion is right or wrong.
 
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DogDay said:
Adam or anyone else who may know...In that Article was a mention about a German Tax Construction that was popular from the 90`s. I have heard mention of that a couple of times but never found the whole story of how it actually worked.

Apparently it was some sort of lease back scheme...Any information on this whether or not those rules still apply or not would be very interesting to read about.

Anyone have a clue about it?


DogDay.
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There was a time when German firms could somehow invest the money for a huge tax credit. That's the extent of my knowledge of that. I think it's actually still going on....
 
Zak Forsman said:
Every work of art has something to say. I hope. my understanding of "a film with a message" is one of evangelism -- the intention to sway minds and make converts of its audience. Unforgiven doesn't evangelize the way Crash, or David Gale or Bowling do. I think they are "ham-fisted" because they are pushing a singular idea. Unforgiven's themes aren't singular in their point of view as they are in the latter three. there's a dialogue of ideas playing out in most compelling art, sometimes in conflict, sometimes in harmony. that's how, I feel, a compelling thematic structure is separate and very different from a film intended to convince me of something's rightness.

mark, I nearly agree with you on the purpose of art but for one difference. having an artist tell me what the meaning of something is, is much less interesting then allowing the spectator to determine its meaning and relevance, embracing the subjective nature of cinema. the latter sparks discussion, the former is a one-way communication that ends with a big "so what?".

anyway, I think a better word for what I'm calling a "film with a message" is evangelism.

I made a film where one of its many threads deal with abortion. I don't want to reveal the specifics of what happens yet because it hasn't been released, but it sure as hell isn't about me telling you whether abortion is right or wrong.
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Naked Evangelism.

HamFistedness.

Sophomoric and Condescending.

Singular in it's dogma and understanding of the world.

Ethno/Egocentric.


Like that.


Yes. That is almost all pure rubbish and sucks ass.




"Themes" don't though.

Themes are what give meaning.

And yes, when they are well woven, they can quite often change hearts and minds.


Your points are well taken.
 
HVX2006 said:
To me there is nothing wrong with Mel making the Passion, but the way it was marketed exposed a sort of lack or respect for the subject. Where for example Shindler list, The Pianist, Apocalypse... all did pretty well and despite that begin widely distributed films.
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But honestly no cared about "The Passion" until people felt "someone" (Jews, Hollywood, whoever) was trying to stop people from seeing it. The film would've made money, but probably not $400 million.

hoofandmouf said:
you are attempting to make a film that makes a half assed political statement, shrewdly wrapped in the veneer of a straight to dvd, b list, foreign sales approach... I think this works to the detriment of said film....
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Hm. I don't know. From what I can tell Hollywood pounds it's messages into your head through mindless entertainment.

-Nate
 
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Nathyn said:
But honestly no cared about "The Passion" until people felt "someone" (Jews, Hollywood, whoever) was trying to stop people from seeing it. The film would've made money, but probably not $400 million.

-Nate
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WOW.... The Jews!?!?!?

Really?

I think that the problem there was just that some members of the Jewish community were saying the film tended to put the blame on them so to speak.

Oddly enough...


And, for the record, since it's been brought it up, Jesus (That's just his stage name by the way) was born a Jew, lived as a Jew (A Rabbi in fact), and died a Jew.
 
Yes. That's the irony of the whole situation. "The Jews killed Jesus" makes no sense unless you're under the belief that Yeshua (believed to be Jesus' Jewish name) was European. But the argument alone helped the movie sale. People seemed to almost fell like someone was trying to stop them from seeing Jesus himself. Suddenly Jesus films were being "persecuted". So people who had no intention of seeing this film suddenly wanted to see it if nothing else just to support it.

And what about the Da Vinci Code? It really made a lot of people think about (and even made some believe) Jesus was married. Again a film that was "entertainment" changed people minds and some people's beliefs.

-Nate
 
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True enough.

My only reservation was that it was essentially a snuff film starring Rabi Yeshu of Nazareth.


Crazy Crazy Stuff...


I was simply horrified when I left.

And that should say a lot considering I was a U.S. Marine for 7 years and have no problem killing my own food! :huh:
 
HVX2006 said:
As for RRB being completely different, the only significant difference i can see is A list actors due to the significantly larger budget. The story line sounds like just anther episode of 24 or the X files. And the subject matter pretty much excludes it from any major award.
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So the subject matter comes off like an episode of two highly popular shows among geekdom? Geekdom runs the theaters right now. I think this means Adam's possibly on the track to fame and fortune. By the way here's an article about Oscar winners not being able to sell scripts. http://sex-in-a-sub.blogspot.com/2008/12/oscar-winner-cant-sell-scripts.html so apparently in some cases an Oscar doesn't mean squat unless you can hock it for food. I've never looked at a script and wondered if it was Oscar worthy, only was it what I wanted it to be. The only Oscar I care about is Oscar Jasso and will he have my film's score done on time.

ESTEBEVERDE said:
My only reservation was that it was essentially a snuff film starring Rabi Yeshu of Nazareth.
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I think the graphic nature was to show what all Jesus went through. Whether people believed in Him or not, many believers were definitely moved to tears by it. I think it's all about subject matter and what the matter means. You can be incredibly graphic in a film like SAW and no one shed a tear. So people bought their own emotional meaning to the film as well, that's why it worked.

ESTEBEVERDE said:
And that should say a lot considering I was a U.S. Marine for 7 years and have no problem killing my own food! :huh:
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Life is full of dichotomies. I love action films but am not a fan of sports at all. Not even real keen on competitive martial arts or MMA but yet am impressed by the fighters themselves.

-Nate
 
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