Red Ruination Blue - a production blog

[taormina]

I don't. my thoughts here were in reply to ESTEBEVERDE's post on a filmmaker's doing what they love and the message they want to send.

I can't imagine what the purpose of constructing a plot around a single-minded philosophy is, if not to convince an audience that "this is what's right" (i.e. change minds). if the intent is to convince us that something is "right", why would an artificially composed story get me there? this is why the conventions of christian movies are so off-putting to most audiences. generally, they are constructed to prove a belief by again, stacking the deck in that position's favor. how phony is that? Audiences tend to find a more complex (and realistic) illustration to be much, much more compelling.

this is my complaint with documentaries of late. michael moore has done great harm to liberal politics and the integrity of the documentary form with the contrivances he's forced upon his topics in an effort to fulfill his point of view (aka agenda). He'll never be able to do more than preach to the choir. And he's certainly not part of advancing real progress.

Good point....yes and no on Michael Moore though. I am as far right wing as he is left. I laughed at Fahrenheit 9/11 but Sicko was a different story altogether. He seems to have changed his tone on that one and it was really compelling IMHO.

 

[taormina]

i don't think of film as a business, though. making behind the scenes content, that's purely a business. filmmaking is more of a... a monetized artform. splitting hairs, really. i know.

Agreed. I tend to go heavier on the art once I'm shooting the project and heavier on the business before and after the project.

 

[Zak Forsman]

Good point....yes and no on Michael Moore though. I am as far right wing as he is left. I laughed at Fahrenheit 9/11 but Sicko was a different story altogether. He seems to have changed his tone on that one and it was really compelling IMHO.

really? haven't seen Sicko. maybe i'll give him another shot.

 

[taormina]

really? haven't seen Sicko. maybe i'll give him another shot.

Let's put it this way - I loathe Michael Moore and everything he stands for - and I thought it was well done. I actually wound up agreeing with many of the points he made, and it was entertaining. What else can you ask for in a doc.

 

[filmman]

Zak: Art without Commerce is a Hobby.

Tut-tut-tut

Commerce without Art is ... boredom? I'm being charitable.LOL

 

[ESTEBEVERDE]

I generally don't like movies with "a message", regardless of what part of the political spectrum they fall in. Doesn't exactly sit well with me when the filmmaker has an agenda, even if I agree with it (Life of David Gale for example). And what I did with Heart of Now was to provide an even-handed look at the prolife/pro-choice issue. I think there is a responsibility not to make a judgement on it, but to present it honestly, and fully, without stacking the deck to suit my personal bias on the issue. Films, generally are an argument between two thematic ideas bouncing back and forth between the two. And the film's conclusion is determined by whichever is the prevailing idea the end. for example, in Dirty Harry, you have two arguments at work... "justice prevails when the good guy is dirtier than the bad guys" and "justice fails when the good guy is dirtier than the bad guys". the films goes back and forth proving each one as true, from scene to scene, until one of those arguments is used to reach a conclusion.

but yeah, you want a send me a message? write a postcard.

Great points Zak.

But your message is egalitarian and as objective as you can be. You are sending a message.

I would say your philosophy is very Shavian in that respect.


I am not suggesting anyone get all Hallmarkey on us but I am saying that you have to try and create what you value and visualize.

Know what I mean?

I believe Cultural Relativism has its place but its nice to have a film with a point as well.

Even if that point is merely to entertain or be even contrarian.

 

[ESTEBEVERDE]

Okay, send me your address. rogar-Love(DBG):

Seriously, most movies have a message regardless of them wanting to or not. It simply a question of theme and the central question of the story. I didn't intentionally write one in there, but it's going to be perceived that way.

I actually think you'll have a hard time pointing out any Oscar or award winning film that doesn't have a message.

Even if it isn't intended!

 

[ESTEBEVERDE]

I don't think of the thematic argument as being synonymous with "sending a message". The Academy gave its most prestigious award to Crash, a film that stacked the emotional deck to forward its agenda, but also to Unforgiven, where the ramifications of violence were explored evenly by a non-judgmental storyteller.

film is a powerful medium when used to spark a dialogue by acknowledging the grey areas on both sides of a thematic argument, but it flounders when you set out with a singular agenda to change a person's mind. filmmakers won't change minds by manufacturing a plotline designed to prove their point of view. it's never happened. never will. minds change when a dialogue of ideas is fostered.

.

Then this is clearly just a matter of semantics because a thematic argument is a message.

But I do disagree... film is very very powerful both visually and aurally in persuasion and making lasting impacts on individuals.

 

[ESTEBEVERDE]

Good point....yes and no on Michael Moore though. I am as far right wing as he is left. I laughed at Fahrenheit 9/11 but Sicko was a different story altogether. He seems to have changed his tone on that one and it was really compelling IMHO.

And that's fine.

I am actually A Democratic Republican, A Libertarian, A Universal Humanist.

Equal and inforcable rights for all and protect the little guy kind of thing.

Ones rights stop where anothers begin.


Balance Balance Balance.... and there in lies the devil of details.... :beer:

 

[ESTEBEVERDE]

really? haven't seen Sicko. maybe i'll give him another shot.

Shiestery but good. Very decent despite it all.

 

[Zak Forsman]

.

Then this is clearly just a matter of semantics because a thematic argument is a message.

But I do disagree... film is very very powerful both visually and aurally in persuasion and making lasting impacts on individuals.

i'd like to hear the names of all the films that swayed your beliefs. and whether they presented a balanced thematic argument or a singular message.

 

[HVX2006]

I think many of the things you did on Corado are commendable, both in terms of production, turn around time, casting... but i equally think many of your decisions strongly favored the "professional" working process over artistic concerns, which in turn made the movie suffer. So what you end up with is yes great considering the budget, but ultimately a minor B flick. The reason I say "failed it's primary goal" is that if this movie was gold, it would have been picked up by the second distributer and the fact that it wasn't means they don't think its gonna make allot of money so they passed or offered you a no advance deal. Why do I say that, because these guys know what they are doing and would be killing each other for it if they thought is was gonna be even just a remotely big successes. Now I am not saying Corado wont turn a profit but lets be realistic, it probably wont be very big and over a significant period of time.

As for RRB being completely different, the only significant difference i can see is A list actors due to the significantly larger budget. The story line sounds like just anther episode of 24 or the X files. And the subject matter pretty much excludes it from any major award.

The notion that you are somehow going to "manufacture" an award winning movie starting out with a target group or market demographic is ludicrous yet emblematic of the mindset that calls making movies a "business baby".

This is not intended as a flame and I do wish you successes, but once in a while a little reality check is called for to counter your excessive bravado.

 

[taormina]

I think many of the things you did on Corado are commendable, both in terms of production, turn around time, casting... but i equally think many of your decisions strongly favored the "professional" working process over artistic concerns, which in turn made the movie suffer. So what you end up with is yes great considering the budget, but ultimately a minor B flick. The reason I say "failed it's primary goal" is that if this movie was gold, it would have been picked up by the second distributer and the fact that it wasn't means they don't think its gonna make allot of money so they passed or offered you a no advance deal. Why do I say that, because these guys know what they are doing and would be killing each other for it if they thought is was gonna be even just a remotely big successes. Now I am not saying Corado wont turn a profit but lets be realistic, it probably wont be very big and over a significant period of time.

As for RRB being completely different, the only significant difference i can see is A list actors due to the significantly larger budget. The story line sounds like just anther episode of 24 or the X files. And the subject matter pretty much excludes it from any major award.

The notion that you are somehow going to "manufacture" an award winning movie starting out with a target group or market demographic is ludicrous yet emblematic of the mindset that calls making movies a "business baby".

This is not intended as a flame and I do wish you successes, but once in a while a little reality check is called for to counter your excessive bravado.

I really can't have a dialog with you, and I now accept that. So here's my last response to you, and I mean it.

How do you know the movie suffered? Did you watch it? So it got passed on by a distributor - do you realize how many movies that are oscar winners, money makers, (insert your accolade here) that got passed on by studios? No, they don't know everything.

I'm glad that you felt like the story line "excludes it from any major award" Ever seen children of men? How many oscars did it get nominated for?

Oh, and one more thing - Corrado will have got me a feature film producing, directing, and writing credit as well as distributed. That, right there, is something you don't see too often.

Could you have done any better?

 

[ESTEBEVERDE]

i'd like to hear the names of all the films that swayed your beliefs. and whether they presented a balanced thematic argument or a singular message.

Bambi

Pinocchio

Born Free

Star Wars

Cry Freedom

Ghandi

Malcom X

American History X

That's just off the top of my head...

I suppose there are of course many others...

 

[Kholi]

^^^ Can't argue with that, well the first paragraph. Good input from outside of the box, 2006. And everyone else.

Don't let this thread get canned because of the heat!!!

 

[HVX2006]

I really can't have a dialog with you, and I now accept that. So here's my last response to you, and I mean it.

How do you know the movie suffered? Did you watch it? So it got passed on by a distributor - do you realize how many movies that are oscar winners, money makers, (insert your accolade here) that got passed on by studios? No, they don't know everything.

I'm glad that you felt like the story line "excludes it from any major award" Ever seen children of men? How many oscars did it get nominated for?

Oh, and one more thing - Corrado will have got me a feature film producing, directing, and writing credit as well as distributed. That, right there, is something you don't see too often.

Could you have done any better?

OK let's leave it at that! In any case I am following you experiments with interest.

 

[Zak Forsman]

Bambi

Pinocchio

Born Free

Star Wars

Cry Freedom

Ghandi

Malcom X

American History X

That's just off the top of my head...

I suppose there are of course many others...

what beliefs did each of those sway? what message of theirs persuaded you into a new direction?

 

[ESTEBEVERDE]

I love this place!

It is absolutely bat sh*t crazy!

It's absurd how someone can preach how the world feels about a film.

The most that can be said is this is how I feel, and this is how I have observed others fell, and this is what others have said.


It is not a one size fits all proposition.


To each his own.

Make what you make.

Get tips and feedback.

But for the love of G-d I don't know how many Prodcer/Directors a film can have especially after it's already made!!?!?!? :grin:


Even at first blush it just seems like sour grapes! :thumbsup:

 

[ESTEBEVERDE]

what beliefs did each of those sway? what message of theirs persuaded you into a new direction?

Zak that is a deep question as I was but a mere babe in arms for some of them but for better or worse....


Bambi was about life and death and loving family and holding on and perhaps about obedience...


Pinocchio is about love and obedience and telling the truth. (Completely One Sided)

Star Wars taught about never giving in never surrendering and most importantly to always have hope. (Completely One Sided)


Cry Freedom reinforced that one should never give in, never surrender, and most importantly to always have hope. (Completely One Sided)

Ghandi reinforced that one should never give in, never surrender, and most importantly to always have hope. (Completely One Sided)



When I watched your short I must admit I didn't quite get it. I didn't see a point other than diversion. Which it was and it was entertaining. Still I personally took a way the feeling of hanging on and taking care when you can and letting go when it's too late.



But, are you seriously saying that films do not have themes aka messages?

 

[Zak Forsman]

concentrating on you in your adult life, you are talking about films that reinforced held beliefs. i want to know what films persuaded a change in you. and I wouldn't classify any of them as a "message" film on the level of something like Bowling for Columbine or The Life of David Gale. Ghandi and Cry Freedom, if memory serves, are more complex than that. this is what i'm talking about: a film driven by a message has an agenda to change minds. and i don't think a film is a good vehicle for that, beyond preaching to the choir.

and of course films have themes. as I've said three or four hundred times in this thread. the fabric of a good film is a weaving of balanced thematic elements into a narrative thread. i'm suggesting this does not necessarily designate that the film has a "message" its trying to prove thru artificial contructs. Crash, for example, was clearly a message film setting up straw man arguments along the way to prove a supposed "truth".

that's all i'm saying.

my own short, i don't even want to talk about. its success is based purely on entertainment value and the fact that it resonated emotionally true for many people. there is no message at work. maybe if I had them get back together, you could say I was trying to push this belief that "love conquers all". but we all know that's unrealistic. anyway, you didn't see a point, because I wasn't trying to convince you of anything.