A decent mixer at a reasonable price

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gi-jones

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Ok, so I've long since come to terms with the fact that I need to upgrade my audio kit. There's a few things that I need by my main concern is getting a mixer. Mainly because I can't seem to find any, within what I'd call a reasonable price.

I recently watched Barry's sound-dvd and they were using the little two-channel Shure (FP24 I think). Fine. That's the kind of thing I need. I don't foresee myself doing anything involving more than two mics anyway. In fact I might only need one.

But how much should I budget for this. Does these things really run at $700 or am I not looking in the right places?
 
I'm planning to purchase a Sound Devices MixPre, when I can afford it. But yes, it's $665 at B&H Photo.

I assume you want a baggable or portable mixer?
 
The Shure FP24 is the MixPre rebranded. That is probably the most affordable high quality bagable preamp/mixer out there. On the cheap much lower quality level Behringer (or maybe Sampson?) makes/ made a small battery powered mixer for around $100. There are some Mackie 1202's that are modified to run off batteries but all of these alternatives are not really bagable. There are also a number of small preamp/mixers that are bagable but they are the same price range, though usually higher, as the MixPre. You might also be able to pick up a deal on a Black Audio Devices Mic Pre but they use 9 9V batteries so you will pay the difference quickly. There are also older Shure pre/mixers around but my experience is that they are much noisier than the MixPre and newer generation Pre/mixers.
 
Yeah, I already have a small, and very inexpensive, Behringer. But what I don't understand is that they can make a stereo mixer, 6 channels with equalizers and all sorts of junk, at that price. To me an ENG mixer seems a very simple contraption. How come they are so expensive?

Anyway, I've read around and pretty much come to the conclusion that the Mixpre is the way to go. It just hurts :)
 
Ok, so Oleg just kindly offered to sell me a FP-33. How does that thing compare to the Mixpre? I can see that it has an analog readout (as opposed to the LED's). Is this an advantage?
 
I don't really need fancy. I need working :)

So far we've never used more than one mic, and usually we've been running directly into the cam.
 
gi-jones said:
Ok, so Oleg just kindly offered to sell me a FP-33. How does that thing compare to the Mixpre? I can see that it has an analog readout (as opposed to the LED's). Is this an advantage?
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The FP-33 is probably closer to an SD302 than it is to the MixPre as it has 3 inputs. It's certainly a 100% professional device and there's been a huge amount of broadcast ENG as well as docos and feature films recorded using them. Personally I like the LEDs of the Sound Devices units as they have more ballistics options and are easier to watch/read on the fly. It costs serious money to design and manufacture tools that sound good and are rugged enough to stand up to hard professional use, day in and day out. But pro sound gear is a long-term investment and purchases today will still be working hard doing their thing long after today's cameras have been retired because they're obsolete so it's worth it to find the budget buy the right stuff right from the start - it saves money in the long run.

My personal choice would be the SD302 but I certainly wouldn't turn up my nose at the Shure.
 
then the MixPre is perfect for you

the 302 may be a better investment as it is less limited but significantly more money and not any better audio, just an additional channel and a bit more control, but the pre-amps are the same

there is a single channel pre-amp right? I think it is the MM-1 and SIGNIFICANTLY cheaper.... but even less control I think however you still get the headphone monitoring which you really should not go without by any means
 
gi-jones said:
I don't really need fancy. I need working :)

So far we've never used more than one mic, and usually we've been running directly into the cam.
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gi, (is that a tract or a military designation?)

I think you underestimate the value of good features and really good engineering. The MixPre is a solid, simple device and based on your needs above, should improve the audio unless your camera doesn't take line level input.

If your camera only takes Mic level, you'll need to add clunky, external pads. My suggestion is that you go for the Sound Devices 302 which can be adjusted to Mic level output. It also has a better feature set that you may not appreciate today, but will tomorrow.

And remember, if you're trying to make a living at this, you can't afford to buy cheap.

Regards,

Ty Ford
 
You can also look for used equipment - a week or so a go there was a 302 on eBay with a Buy it now price of $900. So you can save money this way. Because good sound equipment is made so well, and most of the top level manufacturers stand by their equipment for life (or thereabouts) you can't go wrong. I've heard that PSC will still fix mixers that have been discontinued for years.

Phil
 
gi-jones said:
Yeah, I already have a small, and very inexpensive, Behringer. But what I don't understand is that they can make a stereo mixer, 6 channels with equalizers and all sorts of junk, at that price. To me an ENG mixer seems a very simple contraption. How come they are so expensive?

Anyway, I've read around and pretty much come to the conclusion that the Mixpre is the way to go. It just hurts :)
Click to expand...

I think "junk" is the operative word. Why the price? Well partly because the market is so small and partly because of the quality of construction and partly because of feature set. The MixPre is built like a tank. You could probably drive over it and still use it with out problems. It uses some pricey components to get some very good noise specs and still run of a pair of AA's AND provide full 48V phantom power. It has an excellent limiter, and a slate mic etc. There are things I would like to see changed (level knobs that locked or had indents (pretty much anything that would keep them from being so easily moved), a mic level out for those times one needs that, setable zero point for the meters, some kind of battery test reading). Most/ all of those are on the 302. This is also a tiny market. Behringer probably sells more of those little mixers that all of SD's mixer put together. Behringer has some decent products, but they have lousy quality control and no support. You can get ahold of SD and get a real answer quickly. You can send you box back to get fixed or retro fitted. I built the first couple of mixers I used (studio not portable) and it's a lot of work making a solid and quality mixer and the components aren't cheap. That said a lot of inexpensive mixers will work fine IF you can use them and you treat them with care. My "cart" mixer is an Alesis with a FW connection into my laptop. But I'm not doing ENG/ run and gun or challenging environments with that set up. And even then it doesn't have the all the features I would want/ need if this was something I did a lot of. Most of my recording is FX and in the field bag work. The Alesis wouldn't last long in that environment.
Part of the reason you will see the recommendation to "hire a sound person" used a lot is that even a basic quality setup costs a bunch. If your not going to do this for a living then it's kind of silly to spend that money on sound equipment. Unfortunately a lot of filmmakers then opt to buy cheap consumer equipment and end up with a lot of problems that post has to try and fix. You can if you really want to spend less, build one on your own. It's not rocket science but you'll end up spending $300- $400 and you won't have as small and sturdy a package as the MixPre.
 
I thought the same when I first ventured into this world and people like Noiz2 guided me to the MixPre... I just finished a short where I had no real mixer/boom op and the friends who helped both made horrible mistakes... as in 300% too low most the time! and sometimes worse!! lol and up and down and all over for the other friend who I had to babysat with positioning constantly... yet after a little noise floor cleaning I think I will have what, most consumers, would consider very good sound, yes I need some ADR but somehow it was clean enough not to throw away... I may not be making the best of points, I still don't know enough about audio to be certain, but one thing I can tell you is that you want good pre-amps... it was something I knew well before this project, we all know how much sweeter your music sounds on somebody's super expensive reciever as opposed to the crappiest stereo you know of... well the same basic rules apply to pro gear, minus all the "sweeting" and with a lot more unadulterated you-can-eat-off-the-floor cleanlines to it... I am dazzled every time I put on my headphones and listen to a human's voice right out of that little box... if I could only have 320/24 sound in my DVD... ahhh... lol... ok, sorry about my rant and just ignore everything I said... do what Noiz tell you to do man, can't go wrong! :thumbsup:
 
gi-jones said:
At the moment I'm partial to going with the FP-33. Would anybody speak against that?
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while not a bad mixer, the FP-33 is like using a 15 year old betacam.
Its old school. The VU meters are terrible slow compared to a peak style (IE:SD 302,442..etc)

The limiters in the fp-33 arent in the same universe as the SD 302,442..
and its noiser (pre amps arent in the same league)

That being said the Fp33 was "the standard" for many many years
but in my opinion would be a silly choice in the year 2009
 
The Mix Pre gives you preamps that are every bit as good as any others in any big film. But just two, and not a lot of control. However, if you get your levels right you can do the rest in post. And it does have a high pass that will roll off boom handling noise if you need to do it on the fly. And it is about $700 new.

Then the SD-302 is still less than the Shure, gives you three of the same quality pre-amps as the Mix-Pre and still costs $1,300... a VERY popular mixer... you can get two lavs and a boom going. Perfect for interviews.

The Shure is $1,300 new... though it's resale must be much lower than the 302's which basically sells for a few bucks less than new cause those things are as good as any weapon if you get pissed at your producer. lol... seriously though they are tough as bricks and top notch in the current market as far as 3 channel mixers go :)

I guess in my limited knowledge I'd say that it comes down to whether you really NEED three channels and can't afford a 302 or if you really don't need the third and can afford the mixpre. It's resale is phenomenal too, so you won't lose much money at all when you upgrade to more a bigger mixer with more channels if you need to.
 
Rippie said:
while not a bad mixer, the FP-33 is like using a 15 year old betacam.
Its old school. The VU meters are terrible slow compared to a peak style (IE:SD 302,442..etc)

The limiters in the fp-33 arent in the same universe as the SD 302,442..
and its noiser (pre amps arent in the same league)

That being said the Fp33 was "the standard" for many many years
but in my opinion would be a silly choice in the year 2009
Click to expand...

the fp-33 was designed by the same people who designed the mix pre and opened sound devices :-)




the vu meters are vu meter and that how they work show you the average loudness , check the cooper and WENDT - 90% of what made for USA MARKET WHAS MADE VITH VU METERS - becouse people like you :-)

beside that fp- equipped with pick + 17 db indication led and limiters led indication when they are opened
the position of limiter could be calibrated with internal potentiometer.
fast and slow reliese also
noIsy - not really, if you recording dialog and keeping the gain structure ( high input - low output)
the gain is direct exactly as on mix pre
it is not 302 but so is the price ,
about mix pre - its a joke for normal work , good for people like me who have tones of other quip ,not really for someone who may do a bit more then minimum .
 
This revolves around Oleg giving me a favorable offer on a used FP-33. The 302 is out of my price range at the moment, so it really comes down to FP-33 vs. Mixpre (with the Mixpre still being considerably more expensive). I doubt that I will really need more than two channels, but I would like to know if the FP-33 is going to give me audio of a lesser quality. Will it be harder to control? And is the monitoring a problem.

Now, just to be perfectly clear. I have no reason to distrust Oleg or anything he says, I just like to get second opinions, when I venture out into the deep end of the pool (which audio is for me at this point).
 
I totally agree with Oleg on this. The Fp33 allows you to do better sound work than the Mix-Pre. The first models of FP33 were a little noisy but not anymore. The Fp33 is a great mixer, the Mixpre- is a very limited tool. if you can't swing the Sd302, go for Fp33, you will be able to get more sound work and make money to upgrade later, with the Mxi-pre you will be renting real mixers anytime you need more than two channels, what happens almost al the time.
 
Well if you can get the FP for less than the MixPre then you really should consider two things: 1. will you need the third channel right away and 2. just how nice are the FP's preamps... and that I know nothing about. Hope you make a good decision and good luck with your work man. Oleg of course know his stuff, but keep in mind he is probably also a wiz at the controls and I wouldn't expect to be able to duplicate his habilities on set, at least not right away :)

BTW, I agree that the MixPre is a joke... it really only works for me cause all I need is one channel for one boom... I wish I had a 302.. nah, make that a 744t :D
 
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