How much of the total resolution does 720p capture?

U

USLatin

Panamaniac
What's your guess?

:beating a dead horse:



I know the pixel count, a little over 200%. But Since the HVX is not 1920 x 1080 native and with pixel shift it is somewhere between 1080p and 720p I wonder if it is worth the hassle to you.

I am trying to decide if I should shoot 720p for some projects. I shoot almost everything on 1080p and always had issues with 1080p on my timeline when I CC... 720p gives me real time previews all the time. Add to that the additional storage on P2's... though 1080p Blu-Ray is the way to go for the big screen for festivals and a nice little plus for distribution.

I know this is an OLD subject, and I remember taking part on the threads. But... allow me to revive it for personal gain. So if you really know your stuff and feel like explaining in depth please post here for me! :)
 
Hi Roberto,

How's things going?

To answer your concerns, I think there are two major factors that are the only things you really need to consider, in light of the fact that, in the HVX, both 1080 and 720 modes capture from the same quality signal off of the raster.

If you're final delivery is going to a 1080 size format, you will get a better quality compression, for fine detailed landscapes and complex backgrounds, by using the 1080 settings, as the DVCPro HD codec compresses more efficiently in the larger screen size codec. However, for soft backgrounds with mid to close range blocking of people (typical scene shots) 720p is going to look just as good to the naked eye, especially if your delivery goes out to 720p or smaller.

1) Does the end delivery of your product or project need the larger screen size of 1920x1080 or will 1280x720 be as large as the delivery format?

and more importantly ...

2) Whether or not you are shooting landscape/distant detail shots of anything with small intricate patterns as opposed to closer range shots such as that of people within a shallow depth of field having a blurred or soft background. In the latter case, 720p shots will typically uprez to 1080 quite nicely.

cheers :beer:
 
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Sup John! :beer:

good point... how much detail will we have... well... I intend to shoot quite a bit of exteriors and pile on the details in my backgrounds for the interiors... :) Good point to make! Thanks...

Secondly, I want to be able to distribute a 1080p Blu-Ray with 1920 x 803 for 2.39:1
So while upressed 720p might be very nice, I will be certainly creating the medium for delivering as much resolution as possible... maybe I could get anamorphic lenses and shoot 720p! :) That would work nicely if it weren't for possible issues with the adapter... though we will be using the new SGblade or Ultimate which are grainless... that's some thought... the upres would be quite small... 720 to 803 vertical after the stretch... though that sounds like a lot of messing around... but it should be quite nice... I bet almost NOBODY has done that...

let's just cut through the crap and point out that I am a perfect candidate for 1080p and I will 90% likely shoot 1080... :) but...

I also want the dang frame rates!!! And the faster editing... WHY! Why can't we have it all! :(

Is there a way/test to calculate how much actual resolution the upressed 720p has in comparison to 1080p? I guess it would be done by shooting some charts, the ones with the lines to figure out how many lines you can make out right? But nobody has done this right?
lol...
 
This is the best response for the 720 vs 1080 question I've seen so far!




John Froton said:
Hi Roberto,

How's things going?

To answer your concerns, I think there are two major factors that are the only things you really need to consider, in light of the fact that, in the HVX, both 1080 and 720 modes capture from the same quality signal off of the raster.

If you're final delivery is going to a 1080 size format, you will get a better quality compression, for fine detailed landscapes and complex backgrounds, by using the 1080 settings, as the DVCPro HD codec compresses more efficiently in the larger screen size codec. However, for soft backgrounds with mid to close range blocking of people (typical scene shots) 720p is going to look just as good to the naked eye, especially if your delivery goes out to 720p or smaller.

1) Does the end delivery of your product or project need the larger screen size of 1920x1080 or will 1280x720 be as large as the delivery format?

and more importantly ...

2) Whether or not you are shooting landscape/distant detail shots of anything with small intricate patterns as opposed to closer range shots such as that of people within a shallow depth of field having a blurred or soft background. In the latter case, 720p shots will typically uprez to 1080 quite nicely.

cheers :beer:
Click to expand...
 
I am on the wrong computer, but I shot a high detail comparison I would upload... it is 1080p vs. upressed 720p and the difference is stark... I just wish I was editing on FCP already... or that Vegas got a bit faster. I am trying to get my FCP install going, as it would also prepare me for Scarlet... then I can kiss the whole issue goodbye. :)
 
USLatin said:
Is there a way/test to calculate how much actual resolution the upressed 720p has in comparison to 1080p?
Click to expand...

Because of the compression factor of the DVCPro HD codec (added by the fact that there will be recompression in uprezzing) figuring out the actual numbers will end up being more theoretical than usable in the real world.

In the real world, organic textures with abrupt color variances will compress very well.

On the other hand, intracate lines/patterns and text with subtle, barely changing, color gradients, will compress with more noticeable artifacts and show the flaws of the codec. For instance, color banding will show up under certain circumstances when shooting a simple blue sky that changes the color gradient very subtley. However, a nice cloudy sky with sharply contrasting colors will look flawless.

To eliminate all of the headache of trying to debate it accurately, I like to follow the rule of thumb to just shoot in 1080p for everything going out to 1080 formats and go to 720p for the variable frame rates when needed, keeping in mind to compose the 720p shots so they will compress and uprez nicely.

That being said, for most of the stuff I have been shooting lately, 720p works just fine. Most clients of mine are wanting DVD and internet material :)
 
If you wanted to get all mathematical on it, Panasonic claims the chips generate about 1400 x 810 of detail.

1080P records (in the US version) 1280x1080, so about 90% of the maximum detail the camera can generate.

720p records 960x720. So it retains about 90% of the vertical, but only about 67% of the horizontal.

If you wanted the ultimate 720p, record in 1080p mode and then downscale to 720p.
 
What program/method/settings would you use to downscale to 720?


Barry_Green said:
If you wanted to get all mathematical on it, Panasonic claims the chips generate about 1400 x 810 of detail.

1080P records (in the US version) 1280x1080, so about 90% of the maximum detail the camera can generate.

720p records 960x720. So it retains about 90% of the vertical, but only about 67% of the horizontal.

If you wanted the ultimate 720p, record in 1080p mode and then downscale to 720p.
Click to expand...
 
John Froton said:
To eliminate all of the headache of trying to debate it accurately, I like to follow the rule of thumb to just shoot in 1080p for everything going out to 1080 formats and go to 720p for the variable frame rates when needed, keeping in mind to compose the 720p shots so they will compress and uprez nicely.
Click to expand...

Well man, that sounds like an excellent piece of advice on how to get the most our of the HVX! Sure it adds some work but good breakdown!

What sucks is that I don't want to have any issues with inconsistencies from shot to shot. What I can think of doing is shooting 1080p for a better 720p like Barry suggests and the differences would be smaller. I should check that one out too. Only don't know what I'll render down to for use on Vegas...
 
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Certainly for most broadcast situations, the HD flavor that they are delivering is 720p anyway. I know that Fox did independent tests to conclude that the majority of people couldn't tell any difference between the 720p vs. the 1080, so they decided to save the bandwidth and what not and deliver there HD in 720p.


For me personally, I shoot all of the shortform stuff in 1080... (music videos, sketch comedy, etc,) and the longform concerts and interviews in 720. To shoot a 4 hour concert in 1080 would require a few runners and tons of P2... Maybe if we had a hack solution like the EX1... things might be different.
 
Al MacLeod said:
Anybody else take a stab at this?

"If you wanted the ultimate 720p, record in 1080p mode and then downscale to 720p."
Click to expand...

You would just use whatever editing software you use and bring everything into a 1080p project and simply export to a high quality 720p format.

I don't think it matters as to which program as long as the program works with DVCPro HD natively. High quality mpeg4 (H.264) or Windows HD .wmv would be great for exporting nice looking 720p footage
 
Justyn said:
Maybe if we had a hack solution like the EX1... things might be different.
Click to expand...

What is this you are talking about? I am learning about the EX1 right now to advice a customer that needs long recording times. I read so far that you get much more time into the same size cards but I suppose it is at the expense of higher compression and not being able to push in color correction as easily. That's all I know so far (just started looking).
 
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