HVX200a vs. Sony EX-3 for broadcast TV show on cable. Need Advice ASAP

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silentr

Member
I will be shooting a television show for cable beginning August 12, and will be buying a new camera in the next few days and need advice from people who have had hands on experience with both cameras if possible. The company that is producing the show shoots all of their other show in 1080 (not sure which Sony) and they master all of their shows in 1080.

I already own an HVX-200 that will be the B Camera for the shoot, shooting in 1080/24pA mode. Should be noted, B-Camera will be used sparingly, mainly for action scenes. I have three main concerns with buying the HVX-200a as my A camera for the shoot:

1. Shooting in 1080 will greatly reduce shooting time both in P2 and Firestore, thus slowing down a shoot, that due to location time constraints must be fast.

2. As an alternative I could shoot in 720p mode on both HVX's, which would then force me to uprez the final version of show to 1080 for mastering, which is obviously not ideal.

3. If I did shoot in 1080 mode on the HVX's it would force me to shoot any variably frame rate stuff at 720p, which would then have to be uprezzed in FCP.

This leads me to the Sony XDCAM EX-3, which I love on paper, but have concerns about:

1. A majority of the show will be handheld, so the rolling shutter concerns me greatly, any suggestions to get around it.

2. Hoping Barry will help with this one, how much tweaking will it take Sony to match gamma/color of HVX. I have presets I created for the show, that I would attempt to create in the settings of the EX-3.

3. Finally based on the details I have given you guys, I want informed decisions on what you guys would get. Preferably those who have experience with HVX-200a or Sony EX-1/3.

Please Respond ASAP.
 
First off, what are the camera specs that the network require? Do they have camera specs? For instance, Discovery will not accept the HVX-200 as an A camera, only B-camera. And some only accept 100mb/s cameras, which shuts out HDV and XDCAM cameras.

That aside, I edit shows for Discovery and History channel and the A Camera is the Varicam and the HVX is the B-camera. We shoot 720p24 and then upconvert to 1080p HDCAM for delivery. Looks great.

If you already have the 200, and shoot DVCPRO HD....do yourself a favor and get the 200a or HPX-170 and shoot the same format. the LONG GOP format of the EX1 and the i-frame format of the HVX won't mix well. Don't complicate matters when you can avoid it.
 
Shane Ross said:
If you already have the 200, and shoot DVCPRO HD....do yourself a favor and get the 200a or HPX-170 and shoot the same format. the LONG GOP format of the EX1 and the i-frame format of the HVX won't mix well. Don't complicate matters when you can avoid it.
Click to expand...

The EX1/EX3 can shoot 1.5 Gbps. Long GOP need not be an issue.

But I do agree with not complicating matters. Since they already shoot Sonys, makes sense to shoot the same.
 
PerroneFord said:
The EX1/EX3 can shoot 1.5 Gbps. Long GOP need not be an issue.

But I do agree with not complicating matters. Since they already shoot Sonys, makes sense to shoot the same.
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I agree. The LONG GOP "issues" aren't really issues anymore. If you put a really nice lens on the EX3, it's going to look very close to a Sony Cine-Alta. Since they're already in the Sony camp you might want to look at that as an option.
 
I modified my main post, but also wanted to add modification down here:

I am also editing the show so clearly I don't want to screw myself in post dealing with XDCAM and DVCProHD, if this is less of a problem that I am making than great.

One other note I am supplying the cameras we shoot on so even though the production company shoots Sony, our show will be independent both for production and post.
 
Aroon_Narayanan said:
I'm not sure where you're getting that number. You might be talking about the ExpressCard specs, which have nothing to do with the codec. The XDCAM EX format is long-GOP at 35mbps, 65mbps less than DVCPRO HD (100mbps).
Click to expand...

I'm getting that spec from the HD-SDI port on the right side of the camera. Which is ~15x the rate of the 100Mb/s DVCProHD.
 
No reason to argue guys, I won't be going HD-SDI out, the show is about tactical weapons and there will be a lot of smoke, debris, etc. The more I read, I'm really close to buying the HVX-200A.
 
No argument from me. Just pointing out to the other users here that for commercial projects, the much maligned Long-GOP structure of XDCam on the EX1/EX3 need not be a concern.

Quite frankly, we've proved that the EX1/EX3, can record at over 70 Mb/s at full 1920, unlike DVCPro which is limited to 100Mb/s at 1280x1080.

But you need to shoot what makes sense for YOU. And all the chatter back and forth isn't going to change that.
 
silentr said:
I think the biggest determining factor is the workflow in post, mixing XDCAM and DVCProHD will be a nightmare.
Click to expand...

Mixing ANY full-frame and anamorphic formats will be a nightmare. And I'd avoid it if possible.

So if all the cameras are being provided by the DP, then by all means get matching cameras. The question is only if the video will be accepted by the broadcasters.
 
I would advise getting matching cameras as well. If you're downconverting to SD, it'd probably not be the hardest thing in the world to get an EX1 and 200A to match up, but at 1080P the EX1 is going to be noticeably sharper.

As for long-GOP issues, in XDCAM-EX they're pretty much overcome as long as you're shooting 24P. In 60i, I wouldn't want to be shooting smoke and explosions and running and stuff like that in a long-GOP 60i codec. But if you're mainly shooting progressive, the XDCAM-EX codec is quite robust when in progressive mode.

As for the 1.5Gbps comment -- how would that be recorded? I doubt you're going to run around with an HDCAM deck strapped to your back, right? And if you did, you're dropping down to 140 megabits. I don't think the Convergent XDR is out yet, but even if it is, that's taking you back down to (at most) 160 megabits... but yes, doing so could overcome all long-GOP issues by providing an intraframe codec to record to.

The other thing to consider, if you can afford an EX3, would be an HPX500. About the same price (sans lens), and would match color/gamma with the 200/200A a lot better.

I guess the big question is: has the company seen your work? Are they happy with what they're seeing? If so, why change everything -- why not give them more of what they already like?
 
Barry_Green said:
As for the 1.5Gbps comment -- how would that be recorded? I doubt you're going to run around with an HDCAM deck strapped to your back, right? And if you did, you're dropping down to 140 megabits. I don't think the Convergent XDR is out yet, but even if it is, that's taking you back down to (at most) 160 megabits... but yes, doing so could overcome all long-GOP issues by providing an intraframe codec to record to.
Click to expand...


Barry, have you seen these?

http://www.zotzdigital.com/item.php?pid=2071&mysession=ccdbdef01dbb2f096d397d6c6a0ae4af

Youtube video:
http://blog.digitalcontentproducer.com/nab/2008/04/14/idx-shows-camwave/


As for recording, Wafian solved that some time back:
http://www.wafian.com/HR-1.htm
 
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Seems like these two products together on rental might well serve the need until the convergent ships. No doubt they'd be pretty expensive, but I couldn't imagine them being more than $150-200 a day. Not peanuts, but not exorbitant for an HD production either. And since you're recording industry standard files with a cineform codec, you can drop the files right onto your own raid at the end of the day so you don't need the units hanging around.

The Convergent 4:2:2 and uncompressed are going to be a real boon to a lot of higher end shooters if it all works as advertised.
 
Thanks for your responses, ended up going with HVX-200a and accessorized both cameras, and saved money for high speed camera rental, thank you all for your input. In the end the workflow was the big factor, we are under crunch, and I did want to be transcoding XDCAM to DVCPRoHD or vice versa.
 
Rent them both and take them through their paces. Look at the footage and examine which work flow was less a pain in the ass and purchase.
 
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