Press Release: HMC150, "the new DVX"

[mcsmooth]

Regarding this DRS I guess I'm confused on this for the most part. Is this the same as the "squeeze" mode on the DVX? And while considering this whole idea, will this camera have that option?

Huh???? Squeeze mode has to do with aspect ratio (there are hundreds of posts regarding squeeze on this board, you should know this by now, not to mention barry's book ). DRS has to do with dynamic range. They are in no way related. ALL HD formats are 16x9 native. Very basically, think of shots where either your whites are blown out and/or your blacks are crushed... well it could theoretically squeeze some of that out-of-range data into the picture. Would be a bad-ass feature (even if it is *sadly* only at the 60fps rates like the 170.)

Bob, I liked the hint at Adobe's support. Sounds like a good chance we could see AVCHD support from Premiere CS4. They have been very secretive about this despite countless questions on the subject.

There's no question there is still a lot of uncertainty about dealing with this codec in post, but there have been a lot of advancements this year with more and more consumers buying AVCHD cameras. I'm seeing h264 becoming the standard for HD delivery despite the hassles. I recently discovered CoreAVC, an amazing software decoder ($8-15) that blows away the claims for needing the fastest computer in the world just to watch AVCHD videos (it beats many hardware decoders). I'm now playing videos on a single-core that used to choke. This means the NLEs should be able to eventually match this performance, allow you to chose this decoder, or they should just pay/buy the damn company.

On a side note, I think its a little early to try and estimate editing performance and transcoding times of the 150 considering how many factors are involved including bitrate, resolution, frame rate, and the camera itself (hardware chip doing the encoding). Each variation could end up being much different, not to mention the system it is being analyzed on (which will have much more variables).

*edit* during my 3-beer post, Barry beat me to it, whoops. Barry, why is there "4:3, letterbox, and squeeze" on the 150 when its only 16x9? Pillarbox? Or maybe there is SD news?

 

[sugoroku]

Price in Japan

Price in Japan

It seems prices for both memory cameras have been announced in Japan.

http://www.watch.impress.co.jp/av/docs/20080723/pana.htm

According to this site, AG-HMC155 is 525,000 Japanese Yen.
AG-HPX175 is 630,000 Japanese Yen.

Price in Japan is generally higher than that of U.S.

For example, MSRP for XH-A1 was more than $1000 expensive in Japan when it first came out.

 

[Everts]

It's certainly possible, just depends on whether Apple will do it or not. You can edit AVC-HD natively in several editors, including EDIUS, EDIUS Neo, Pinnacle Studio 11, Nero, and some others. It's not very fast though; on my 2.4GHz Core 2 Duo, EDIUS handles AVC-HD at about 12fps.

Would you need something like an HP workstation or BOXX workstation to edit AVCHD in realtime ?

 

[Everts]

It seems prices for both memory cameras have been announced in Japan.

http://www.watch.impress.co.jp/av/docs/20080723/pana.htm

According to this site, AG-HMC155 is 525,000 Japanese Yen.
AG-HPX175 is 630,000 Japanese Yen.

Price in Japan is generally higher than that of U.S.

For example, MSRP for XH-A1 was more than $1000 expensive in Japan when it first came out.

Its safe to say that both camera's will not be Pal /Ntsc Switcable,seeing there is no mention of Pal shooting modes.

 

[Barry_Green]

Barry, why is there "4:3, letterbox, and squeeze" on the 150 when its only 16x9? Pillarbox? Or maybe there is SD news?

DOH! Sorry, trying to keep too many camcorders straight in my head. You are correct, I believe there is no SD on the 150, hence no need for 4:3, letterbox, or squeeze...

 

[Barry_Green]

Would you need something like an HP workstation or BOXX workstation to edit AVCHD in realtime ?

For right this minute? Maybe. But I keep expecting the manufacturers to tap into the AVC decoding hardware in the graphics cards (ATI and nVidia graphics cards have hardware acceleration for decoding H.264). So let's see what the next round of software updates brings. I expect Adobe CS4 will probably support native full-speed AVC-HD, but that's just a guess.

 

[BobDiaz]

That sounds like the DRS Dynamic Range Stretching feature on the 170. That would be pretty cool if they included it in the 150 as well. It is basically a sort of limited High Dynamic Range concept, the camera seems almost like it can set the iris for individual areas of the picture rather than one iris for the entire picture (I know that's not possible, I'm just saying what it SEEMS like). So the darker areas seem like it's opened up some, and the brighter areas seem like it stops down some. It's pretty cool. Only works in 1080i or 720/60p though.

The slide showed the "DRS Dynamic Range Stretching feature" on the 150 and gave example pictures. My guess is they are taking the image block by block and if a block has values below a set level, they are shifting the numbers for the pixels for that block to make them more visible. I believe the HMC-150's A/D is 14 bits, so there's room for this change in the values without getting banding.

Another interesting feature:

> IF you have two HMC-150s, you can connect them together via standard RCA component cables, select one camera as the master, select the other camera as the slave, and copy the master's time code settings to the slave.

It seems prices for both memory cameras have been announced in Japan.

http://www.watch.impress.co.jp/av/do...80723/pana.htm

According to this site, AG-HMC155 is 525,000 Japanese Yen.
AG-HPX175 is 630,000 Japanese Yen.

Price in Japan is generally higher than that of U.S.

For example, MSRP for XH-A1 was more than $1000 expensive in Japan when it first came out.

Based on the current rate of conversion 525,000 Japanese Yen = $4,867 USA dollars. However, using the logic that things are $1,000 more expensive in Japan than the USA, that would come in at $3,867. So, the idea that the list price will be $3,999 and street price will be $3,499 seems possible... We'll see.

A computer translation of the WEB page is:

Matsushita, camera for AVCHD highest 24Mbps record corresponding business
Handy type for broadcast of −P2 card record

AG-HMC155 September sale
Standard price: 520,000 5,000 Yen (AG-HMC155)
　　　　　630,000 Yen (AG-HPX175)
The Matsushita Electric Industrial Co., Ltd. corporation sells the AVCHD camera “AG-HMC155” for business in September. As for price 520,000 5,000 Yen. In addition, it sells also P2HD video camera small-sized model “AG-HPX175” for broadcasting service to September. As for price 630,000 Yen.
* AG-HMC155
AG-HMC155
　As for AVCHD camera “AG-HMC155” for business of hand-held type, in image pickup element 1/3 type progressives CCD 3 loading. The lens loads, [raikadeikomazumurenzu] of optical 13 time zoom (35mm conversion 28 - 368mm, F1.6 - 3.0) with, optical type hand blurring revision function (O.I.S.).
　As for the record format with AVCHD, the image record with of MPEG-4 AVC High Profile is possible in the SD/SDHC card. 1080i (60i), 1080p (30p/24p), 720p (60p/30p/24p) and the like it supports record resolution, HA which is common with one for national welfare as a record mode (17Mbps), HG (13Mbps), HE (6Mbps) other things, it loads also the PH mode of the highest 24Mbps which becomes the upper limit of AVCHD. You call the average bit rate of PH mode that with 21Mbps, “the high picture quality which exceeds HDV is actualized”.
　It corresponds to also 24p record. The black collapsing and the white flying are controlled “DRS (the dynamic range stretcher)” load function automatically. 3.5 To have the liquid crystal monitor of type, center zoom/the histogram/focusing assist function of both 3 types selective possibility. Also corrugated/vector scope simple display function has.
　Equipping XLR audio input and HDMI output and analog sound (RCA) output etc. Also USB 2.0 has. Battery drive time at time of attachment battery “VW-VBG260” utilization approximately 100 minutes. As for external size 154×397×164mm (width × depth × height), as for weight approximately 1.7kg (substance) /1.98kg (when photographing).
* AG-HPX175
　The video camera for the broadcasting service which utilizes the P2 card in the record media. The image pickup element and optical system load being common with AG-HMC155, [raikadeikomazumurenzu] of optical 13 time zoom (35mm conversion 28 - 368mm, F1.6 - 3.0). Optical type hand blurring revision function (O.I.S.) it loads.
AG-HPX175
　As for record format with DVCPRO HD, 1080/60i and 720/60p etc. “DRS (the dynamic range stretcher)” function is loaded same as AG-HMC155. Variable frame rate function and focusing assist function etc of 20 step selections are had. It equips also the HD/SD SDI output terminal.
　Adoption of the P2 card with the abolition and the like of the mini- DV mechanic substantially miniaturization. As for weight as a small-sized HD camera for broadcast approximately 1.9kg, most light weight (the substance) /2.25kg (when photographing). As for external size 154×397×179.5mm (width × depth × height).

Hi Bob,
What type of or what processor speed would be adequate for editing avchd. Or does this depend on your NLE.
Would a quad core meet the system requirements?
Sorry if this has been asked before.

Right now we have to guess at what will be required, because none of us have the HMC-150 files to play with. By using other files that should be more or less similar,
I think I'm reasonably close in my guess. (Also, I'm drawing on information from other users.)

WITH TRANSCODING: I've found my iMAC with a 2.4 GHz Dual Core was more than up to the task. By the way, Transcoding is NOT a dirty word, while in theory there should be a loss in quality due to trasncoding, it's too little a difference to see.

NATIVE EDITING: The current wisdom seems to be 3 GHz Quad Core or higher is required. As Barry had pointed out, this may change as video card makers offer video cards that can take on the word of decoding the AVCHD video. Thus with cards that can do the extra work, the system requirements will drop.

I'm seeing that as the compression rate is reduced, the processing time is also reduced. Because the HMC-150 has data rate higher than all the other AVCHD Cameras, some reduction in processing requirements may be possible. HOWEVER, this is unproven and we will need to get our hands on an HMC-150 fle to know for sure.

Its safe to say that both camera's will not be Pal /Ntsc Switcable,seeing there is no mention of Pal shooting modes.

As far as I've seen, the USA model is for 60p 60i, 30p, and 24p modes only.


Bob Diaz

 

[sugoroku]

Some correction

Some correction

I did bit more research and found out MSRP for HVX205, the Japanese version, and HVX200A to be not so much different. It was 682,500 in Japan and $5995 for U.S if I recall it correct. It is still $500 cheaper though.

Interesting thing is that HPX175, Japanese version of HPX170, is priced lower than HVX205. It is 630,000 VS 682,500.

I dunno if it is the same with how U.S. version will be. But it should help you estimate.

By the way Bill, that translation is pretty accurate and I am really surprised:dankk2:

 

[Nathyn]

I'm looking foreward to this camera.

-Nate

 

[Aroon_Narayanan]

What's the aspect ratio of the LCD? Does anyone know?
Will it be 4:3 like the 170 or 200, or will Panasonic change their design and make a 16:9 display?

 

[Barry_Green]

It's the same LCD as on the 170 and 200. They use a 4:3 LCD for multiple reasons, including that the thumbnail display is 4:3, and when showing the 16:9 video they push the counter and audio meters and stuff like that into the letterbox bars so it's not cluttering up your image.

 

[BobDiaz]

Sorry that this is not the best shot, but it does show how most of the key information is outside of the 16:9 image. In this shot, I had the waveform monitor turned on.

Bob Diaz

 

[Nathyn]

How does one edit in Final Cut Studio? 5.1.4. I'm on a G4 dual 1gig and a an Intell 2.0 Macbook. Anyone know what to do?

WITH TRANSCODING: I've found my iMAC with a 2.4 GHz Dual Core was more than up to the task. By the way, Transcoding is NOT a dirty word, while in theory there should be a loss in quality due to trasncoding, it's too little a difference to see.

What are you transcoding with?

NATIVE EDITING: The current wisdom seems to be 3 GHz Quad Core or higher is required. As Barry had pointed out, this may change as video card makers offer video cards that can take on the word of decoding the AVCHD video. Thus with cards that can do the extra work, the system requirements will drop.

What do you think I could do now on an Intell 2.0 Macbook?

What about a G4?

-Nate

 

[drdimento]

Barry & Bob - Is the LCD better than the HVX200? I personally believe that the DVX100B had a better LCD than the 200. In fact, I hardly ever was able to use the LCD on anything important because it was so off on image look that it wasn't even funny. Is the 150 closer to real?

 

[BobDiaz]

How does one edit in Final Cut Studio? 5.1.4. I'm on a G4 dual 1gig and a an Intell 2.0 Macbook. Anyone know what to do?
What are you transcoding with?

What do you think I could do now on an Intell 2.0 Macbook?

What about a G4?

-Nate

The Transcoding is part of Final Cut xxx. You import the clip, drop it into the time line, and select Render All". I understand there's going to be an application form Panasonic that allows you to select the in/out points of each clip and it renders only the parts between the in/out points as it imports the files.

I only switched from a PC to a MAC last year, so my information on the different MACs (beyond the current iMAC & MAC Mini) is somewhat limited. The ohter questions will need to be answered by someone with more MAC experience.

Bob Diaz

Barry & Bob - Is the LCD better than the HVX200? I personally believe that the DVX100B had a better LCD than the 200. In fact, I hardly ever was able to use the LCD on anything important because it was so off on image look that it wasn't even funny. Is the 150 closer to real?

My understanding is that the LCD is about the same as the HVX-200's LCD. However, there are several ways to help you focus the image.


Bob Diaz

 

[JeganRX]

Got the word myself through authorized dealer emails (I'm not gonna post the actual scanned pages since I'm not sure on who is actually authorized to find out).

List Price: $3995
Cost to resellers: $3,150 (quantities of one), $3100 (in 10)
MAP Price: $3,495!!!!

There's also apparently a "shooter" pack of the camera that is MAP'd for $3995, which includes the camera, carry case, shotgun mic, 8GB SDHC card (presumably Class 6), and a 5800mA battery.

I'll PM the details if people need proof.

 

[Barry_Green]

Barry & Bob - Is the LCD better than the HVX200? I personally believe that the DVX100B had a better LCD than the 200. In fact, I hardly ever was able to use the LCD on anything important because it was so off on image look that it wasn't even funny. Is the 150 closer to real?

The DVX100B and the HVX200 use the exact same LCD. I believe the LCD on the 150/170 is the same part, but the processing is very greatly improved so the image looks much better.

 

[Nathyn]

Got the word myself through authorized dealer emails (I'm not gonna post the actual scanned pages since I'm not sure on who is actually authorized to find out).

List Price: $3995
Cost to resellers: $3,150 (quantities of one), $3100 (in 10)
MAP Price: $3,495!!!!

Check the press release section.

The Transcoding is part of Final Cut xxx. You import the clip, drop it into the time line, and select Render All". I understand there's going to be an application form Panasonic that allows you to select the in/out points of each clip and it renders only the parts between the in/out points as it imports the files.

That's cool. I'm running FCP Studio 2 on a G4 and I've been experimenting with the HV20. I got all this specs about how much power I would need and how slow it would be etc. I don't see that much difference between the transcoding on my G4 than on my 2.0 Intell laptop. Granted I know it's a little faster. I would like something to turn these things into Quicktime files. I exported a clip out as an 24p HDV quicktime and pulled it back in and cut it up with no problem. (Just wanted to see how it would work).

A friend of mine gave me his 20gig iPod. A company called Bella was making a contraption that would turn iPods into Firestore type devices, but it never got off the ground. I contacted bella but they said the "Bella Catapult" was caput. This would've been awesome for me.

-Nate

 

[drdimento]

With regard to this whole transcoding issue why couldn't one just pick up cheap ole Pinnacle Studio 10 or 11, both of which read the AVCHD, the pump it out as any desirable format known to man (or woman) and then use that secondary file as the import to whatever NLE?

BTW Bob Diaz, if by chance you are running a MacBook Pro with a Windows partition, do you know how to get a track pad "tap/click" functional on the Windows side AND also an easier way to get a right click without having to use an external mighty mouse (or cheap mouse ) AND also how to slow down the two finger slide speed? On the Mac side the two finger slide works nicely but on the windows side it's soooooooo fast it just pops between the top and bottom of a page fast enough to make one dizzy. Also, we are new to Mac's too. This is our first in over 5 years and the MacPro is supposed to arrive next week.

 

[Nathyn]

I see no reason why FCP can't do this. Besides I'd have to render on the G4 either way and I'm going to bet it doesn't take as long as has been said, because HDV doesn't take as long. (Then again my memory is almost maxxed out on the G4).

-Nate