Press Release: HMC150, "the new DVX"
- Thread starter Barry_Green
- Start date
Aroon_Narayanan
Well-known member
Wait...in this brochure, the 150 lacks NTSC/PAL switchability...do we know if it will be there in September?
Barry_Green
Moderator
We do not know whether it will be there.
Aroon_Narayanan
Well-known member
Dangit...that feature had me exited...
BobDiaz
The Professor
In looking over the number of pages generated so far, it seems that we generate about 5 pages per month; thus:
5 pages of speculation per month x 3 months to go = 15 pages by October
rogar-BigGrin(DBG)Maybe by the time it comes out, we can get out own sub-section, rather than a thread...
Bob Diaz
JeganRX
Well-known member
Just stumbled upon this gem of a camera...
Been wanting to get a camera for some time now, and being a poor college student, the decision isn't easy as to where the money goes. I've had about two years experience with the DVX-100 (the A model actually, but I recently got to try out the B) in high school, and while I love the camera, I feel (like I'm sure that many do) like its age is something that could be a problem.
Not to fault the camera in any way, but it seems to me that HD would be the way to go. About a year and a half ago, I was literally lusting over the HVX-200 when I heard of it in late 2006, and then I switched to drooling over the PMW-EX1... Both seem great, but their base cost, combined with solid-state costs and HDD arrays being involved (particularly the HVX), led me to pretty much doubt ever buying them.
I think this HMC-150 will be great though, as it goes with cheaper solid-state media (SDHC), and uses AVCHD, which I think many people sadly underestimate. I have not seen actual AVCHD footage, but of AVC footage in general, and a bitrate of 21Mbps is MORE than enough to satisfy even 1080p/24.
First off, from the top of my head, I can think that Apple has many quicktime trailers in AVC 1080p (the last time I viewed one though, it ran about 10mbits, not sure if they upped that), but most notably, they are all only main profile, while AVCHD is high profile if I'm correct. Ironically, Quicktime doesn't support high profile playback last time I checked, or at the very least, doesn't encode that way. Considering the quality of said trailers, high profile versions would hopefully match and EXCEED their quality.
Second, many HD-DVDs before the demise of the format, hovered in "low" bitrates for their movies without noticeable loss (The HD-DVD release of "TMNT" was around 15Mbit AVC). While I'm biased for AVC's performance, it's also important to note of course, that a release-disc is almost certainly going to have two-pass encoding with specific fine tuning done for motion prediction, whereas AVCHD is not free to use such luxuries (unless they buffered an entire GOP...).
Third, for Windows editors (admittedly not the majority of users here, but it includes myself, despite being FCP trained), it should be relatively easy to get AVCHD inside Premiere, despite not being able to natively read the format. I haven't tried it with AVC myself, but DGAVCIndex can create a .dga file that references your AVC video; theoretically, running this through VFAPI wrapper should give you a false AVI that Premiere can open (it will reference DGAVCIndex decoder for your AVC video). It works when creating false AVIs that reference MPEG2 video, but like I said, I haven't tried it yet with anything AVC (maybe I'll try a 40Mbit Blu-ray...
). THIS DOES NOT CREATE AN INTERMEDIATE ENCODING OF YOUR VIDEO!
Lastly, I think this camera will be my choice, provided it's cost isn't too much above $4000 (I'll still consider if $4500, but that's pushing my non-existent budget right now...). AVCHD sounds great, but it will indeed be a little bit before the process becomes streamlined. At 19, I don't think I'll be too concerned about real jobs quite yet, more so school work... and it'll be nice to show off brilliant HD images. :laugh:
Been wanting to get a camera for some time now, and being a poor college student, the decision isn't easy as to where the money goes. I've had about two years experience with the DVX-100 (the A model actually, but I recently got to try out the B) in high school, and while I love the camera, I feel (like I'm sure that many do) like its age is something that could be a problem.
Not to fault the camera in any way, but it seems to me that HD would be the way to go. About a year and a half ago, I was literally lusting over the HVX-200 when I heard of it in late 2006, and then I switched to drooling over the PMW-EX1... Both seem great, but their base cost, combined with solid-state costs and HDD arrays being involved (particularly the HVX), led me to pretty much doubt ever buying them.
I think this HMC-150 will be great though, as it goes with cheaper solid-state media (SDHC), and uses AVCHD, which I think many people sadly underestimate. I have not seen actual AVCHD footage, but of AVC footage in general, and a bitrate of 21Mbps is MORE than enough to satisfy even 1080p/24.
First off, from the top of my head, I can think that Apple has many quicktime trailers in AVC 1080p (the last time I viewed one though, it ran about 10mbits, not sure if they upped that), but most notably, they are all only main profile, while AVCHD is high profile if I'm correct. Ironically, Quicktime doesn't support high profile playback last time I checked, or at the very least, doesn't encode that way. Considering the quality of said trailers, high profile versions would hopefully match and EXCEED their quality.
Second, many HD-DVDs before the demise of the format, hovered in "low" bitrates for their movies without noticeable loss (The HD-DVD release of "TMNT" was around 15Mbit AVC). While I'm biased for AVC's performance, it's also important to note of course, that a release-disc is almost certainly going to have two-pass encoding with specific fine tuning done for motion prediction, whereas AVCHD is not free to use such luxuries (unless they buffered an entire GOP...).
Third, for Windows editors (admittedly not the majority of users here, but it includes myself, despite being FCP trained), it should be relatively easy to get AVCHD inside Premiere, despite not being able to natively read the format. I haven't tried it with AVC myself, but DGAVCIndex can create a .dga file that references your AVC video; theoretically, running this through VFAPI wrapper should give you a false AVI that Premiere can open (it will reference DGAVCIndex decoder for your AVC video). It works when creating false AVIs that reference MPEG2 video, but like I said, I haven't tried it yet with anything AVC (maybe I'll try a 40Mbit Blu-ray...
). THIS DOES NOT CREATE AN INTERMEDIATE ENCODING OF YOUR VIDEO!Lastly, I think this camera will be my choice, provided it's cost isn't too much above $4000 (I'll still consider if $4500, but that's pushing my non-existent budget right now...). AVCHD sounds great, but it will indeed be a little bit before the process becomes streamlined. At 19, I don't think I'll be too concerned about real jobs quite yet, more so school work... and it'll be nice to show off brilliant HD images. :laugh:
BobDiaz
The Professor
Update
Update
I just returned form a special presentation by one of the local dealers with the help of Panasonic and Bernie Mitchell. The presentation covered the Panasonic AVCCAM Line of Products. The term, "AVCCAM" is Panasonic's marketing term for the Professional (High End) AVCHD Cameras.
Things of interest from this presentation were:
> The release date for the HMC-150 is not a given yet. Thus, it could be September OR it could be October.
> Expect several HMC-150 "white papers" dealing with issues like editing and other things to come out in a month or two. They will appear on the Panasonic WEB Pages.
> I saw footage from the HMC-70 (13 Mbps, with three 1/4" CCDs) that was edited in Final Cut Pro and converted back to AVCHD. Even from 2 feet from the monitor, the footage was amazing clean. (These were shots of bi-planes taken from a bi-plane.) This leads me to believe that the footage from the HMC-150 at 21 Mbps should not have any real problem with compression noise.
> The system today for converting edited footage back to AVCHD is somewhat tricky, but by the time the HMC-150 comes out, the software that does it in a single step should be ready.
> There is a feature on the HMC-150 that gives the user a choice, (1) Let the dark levels go to black or (2) Raise the brightness in the darker areas to bring out more detail. I only saw still photos, but it looks like it could be very handy.
> The AV files generated will be, "xxxxxxx.MTS"
> The first HMC-150s will be coming and will be in the hands of select users in a few weeks. I'll guess that these are the pre-production units (or first production units) and are going to be used to generate the promotion videos, as well as doing user checks of the equipment before it's released. Don't expect the users who are chosen to say much... I'm also guessing that they are under a non-disclosure agreement until the camera comes out.
> The time to convert from AVCHD to Apple Prores may not be as long as we first thought. The number presentated was 10 minutes for each 1 minute of footage. The time may be closer to 1 minute for 1 minute of footage. We'll see how this turns out...
> While there are programs for PC users to do things like convert AVCHD files to DVCPRO-HD (and other things), expect to see these programs for the MAC.
I'm sure there are other things I forgot to add, but it's getting late and I'm getting tired...
Bob Diaz
Update
I just returned form a special presentation by one of the local dealers with the help of Panasonic and Bernie Mitchell. The presentation covered the Panasonic AVCCAM Line of Products. The term, "AVCCAM" is Panasonic's marketing term for the Professional (High End) AVCHD Cameras.
Things of interest from this presentation were:
> The release date for the HMC-150 is not a given yet. Thus, it could be September OR it could be October.
> Expect several HMC-150 "white papers" dealing with issues like editing and other things to come out in a month or two. They will appear on the Panasonic WEB Pages.
> I saw footage from the HMC-70 (13 Mbps, with three 1/4" CCDs) that was edited in Final Cut Pro and converted back to AVCHD. Even from 2 feet from the monitor, the footage was amazing clean. (These were shots of bi-planes taken from a bi-plane.) This leads me to believe that the footage from the HMC-150 at 21 Mbps should not have any real problem with compression noise.
> The system today for converting edited footage back to AVCHD is somewhat tricky, but by the time the HMC-150 comes out, the software that does it in a single step should be ready.
> There is a feature on the HMC-150 that gives the user a choice, (1) Let the dark levels go to black or (2) Raise the brightness in the darker areas to bring out more detail. I only saw still photos, but it looks like it could be very handy.
> The AV files generated will be, "xxxxxxx.MTS"
> The first HMC-150s will be coming and will be in the hands of select users in a few weeks. I'll guess that these are the pre-production units (or first production units) and are going to be used to generate the promotion videos, as well as doing user checks of the equipment before it's released. Don't expect the users who are chosen to say much... I'm also guessing that they are under a non-disclosure agreement until the camera comes out.
> The time to convert from AVCHD to Apple Prores may not be as long as we first thought. The number presentated was 10 minutes for each 1 minute of footage. The time may be closer to 1 minute for 1 minute of footage. We'll see how this turns out...
> While there are programs for PC users to do things like convert AVCHD files to DVCPRO-HD (and other things), expect to see these programs for the MAC.
I'm sure there are other things I forgot to add, but it's getting late and I'm getting tired...
Bob Diaz
ilauzirika
Boring Senior Member
thanks for the update, I'm willing to see what this small beast can do in real life....
BobDiaz
The Professor
The context of the question was how long did it take to convert the HMC-70 footage to Apple Prores. Bernie Mitchel admitted that he didn't time it, but he felt it took less than 20 seconds to convert a 20 second clip.
Because this was not timed, there's a chance of error in estimating the time required. Another factor is that he did not say if this was on a dual core or quad core Apple, nor did he say what the clock speed of the Apple was.
I'll try to get a copy of the files and measure the time, but for now, this information should be considered only as a very general range and not 100% accurate.
> Cost Update: At NAB we were told, "Under $4,500"; however no one could say how far under $4,500, is it $4,499 or $3,999 or ... While we still do not have any official word, there are hints that the list price may be $3,999 and the street price will be $3,499. Remember, this is the current guess and NOT anything official.
> Editing Apple: The applications listed were: iMovie, FCE (Final Cut Express), FCP (Final Cut Pro), and Adobe. Work is in progress to assure compatibility.
> Editing PC: I can't recall all the programs listed, but here's what I remember.... Adobe, Nero, Edius, Pinnacle, Ulead, there was more, but I'm drawing a blank. Like the Apple, work is in progress to assure compatibility.
> More Information Coming: In the next 1 to 2 months, we can expect more information about the HMC-150 to come out.
Bob Diaz
Because this was not timed, there's a chance of error in estimating the time required. Another factor is that he did not say if this was on a dual core or quad core Apple, nor did he say what the clock speed of the Apple was.
I'll try to get a copy of the files and measure the time, but for now, this information should be considered only as a very general range and not 100% accurate.
> Cost Update: At NAB we were told, "Under $4,500"; however no one could say how far under $4,500, is it $4,499 or $3,999 or ... While we still do not have any official word, there are hints that the list price may be $3,999 and the street price will be $3,499. Remember, this is the current guess and NOT anything official.
> Editing Apple: The applications listed were: iMovie, FCE (Final Cut Express), FCP (Final Cut Pro), and Adobe. Work is in progress to assure compatibility.
> Editing PC: I can't recall all the programs listed, but here's what I remember.... Adobe, Nero, Edius, Pinnacle, Ulead, there was more, but I'm drawing a blank. Like the Apple, work is in progress to assure compatibility.
> More Information Coming: In the next 1 to 2 months, we can expect more information about the HMC-150 to come out.
Bob Diaz
Barry_Green
Moderator
That sounds like the DRS Dynamic Range Stretching feature on the 170. That would be pretty cool if they included it in the 150 as well. It is basically a sort of limited High Dynamic Range concept, the camera seems almost like it can set the iris for individual areas of the picture rather than one iris for the entire picture (I know that's not possible, I'm just saying what it SEEMS like). So the darker areas seem like it's opened up some, and the brighter areas seem like it stops down some. It's pretty cool. Only works in 1080i or 720/60p though.
Jared Meyer
Veteran
I would love to get away from tape, partly in order to bypass the time spent capturing....but I guess that will just be replaced by the same exact amount of time spent transcoding.
Wonder how long before we can edit AVCHD natively in FCP, or if it's even possible.
Wonder how long before we can edit AVCHD natively in FCP, or if it's even possible.
Barry_Green
Moderator
It's certainly possible, just depends on whether Apple will do it or not. You can edit AVC-HD natively in several editors, including EDIUS, EDIUS Neo, Pinnacle Studio 11, Nero, and some others. It's not very fast though; on my 2.4GHz Core 2 Duo, EDIUS handles AVC-HD at about 12fps.
How does this 12fps AVCHD processing compare to HDV?
Barry_Green
Moderator
HDV is faster.
Regarding this DRS I guess I'm confused on this for the most part. Is this the same as the "squeeze" mode on the DVX? And while considering this whole idea, will this camera have that option?
Up until a few months ago we shot all widescreen material in "letterbox" not realizing that the "squeeze" mode would allow a dvd to fill a widescreen tv; however, when doing this we have to watch carefully to always remember that if the same dvd is played on a standard 4:3 tv the sides will be cut and thus while shooting squeeze intended for both widescreen and 4:3 viewing possibilities we always shoot as if it is 4:3 and only use that space on the frame.
will the hmc150 and/or the 70 have the same characteristics?
Up until a few months ago we shot all widescreen material in "letterbox" not realizing that the "squeeze" mode would allow a dvd to fill a widescreen tv; however, when doing this we have to watch carefully to always remember that if the same dvd is played on a standard 4:3 tv the sides will be cut and thus while shooting squeeze intended for both widescreen and 4:3 viewing possibilities we always shoot as if it is 4:3 and only use that space on the frame.
will the hmc150 and/or the 70 have the same characteristics?
Barry_Green
Moderator
It's totally, completely, entirely unlike squeeze anything.
It's dynamic range stretching. It means that instead of applying one gamma for the entire picture, it can selectively adjust the gamma on various different parts of the image. So areas that might otherwise have been underexposed, now don't have to be. Areas that would have been blown out, won't be.
Regarding squeeze: Your understanding of how DVD players work is incomplete. The proper way to author a DVD for both TV standards is to use squeeze mode. The DVD player will automatically unsqueeze/letterbox to compensate when connected to a 4:3 TV (but, this presumes that the DVD player has been properly set up by the user). I think just about all Hollywood films are now being mastered in "squeeze" mode.
The 170 and 150 both have 4:3, letterbox, and squeeze, just like the HVX does (the DVX's "squeeze" was a fake 16:9, whereas on the HVX "squeeze" is legitimate true 16:9).
The 170 also has the ability to downconvert the HD video onto the standard-def analog outputs in one of three different ways. On the HVX it was always sent out as 16:9 "squeeze", but on the 170 it can output it as squeeze, or as letterboxed 4:3, or as a side-crop center-extraction 4:3 image.
It's dynamic range stretching. It means that instead of applying one gamma for the entire picture, it can selectively adjust the gamma on various different parts of the image. So areas that might otherwise have been underexposed, now don't have to be. Areas that would have been blown out, won't be.
Regarding squeeze: Your understanding of how DVD players work is incomplete. The proper way to author a DVD for both TV standards is to use squeeze mode. The DVD player will automatically unsqueeze/letterbox to compensate when connected to a 4:3 TV (but, this presumes that the DVD player has been properly set up by the user). I think just about all Hollywood films are now being mastered in "squeeze" mode.
The 170 and 150 both have 4:3, letterbox, and squeeze, just like the HVX does (the DVX's "squeeze" was a fake 16:9, whereas on the HVX "squeeze" is legitimate true 16:9).
The 170 also has the ability to downconvert the HD video onto the standard-def analog outputs in one of three different ways. On the HVX it was always sent out as 16:9 "squeeze", but on the 170 it can output it as squeeze, or as letterboxed 4:3, or as a side-crop center-extraction 4:3 image.