On the fence, EX1 owners look at this!!!

TheMusician said:
Kholi, it was nice to hear your thoughts on the EX1 and the HVX200A. You are a professional that has used a lot of different cameras so I always value your opinions. The one thing that you did not include was a noise comparison. What are your thoughts on the levels of noise and low-light capabilities of the 200A with respect to the EX1?
Click to expand...
\

The Noise level of the EX-1 is still slightly cleaner than the 200A, with emphasis on slight. I made sure to test both and for the 200A to be as clean as it is it's astonishing, the EX1 still has a slight edge in that department.

In all, I think it's DVCproHD's fault and not the camera itself. The EX-1 being Full Raster probably helps in this area.

The 200A is DEFINITELY cleaner than the 200 by miles, though. So to the point that +9dB of gain on the 200A is a totally acceptable image. This is similar to what I found with the EX-1, where pushing to about +6 or 9+ was still acceptable for practical usage. This makes both cameras theoretically faster, and is a great tool for 35mm Adapter users. In fact, both of these cameras are a 35mm Adapter users dream. Freeing up the light loss from an Adapter allows you to choose the ones that once lost "too much" light. So it's a good place to be at, either camera.

The 200A and EX-1 in 1080 mode are the same as far as lowlight goes. Neither was brighter nor darker in the same situation, same shutter, etc etc. I A/B'd footage from both cameras and saw no immediate/apparent difference in lowlight performance. In 720p the HVX200A was faster. For some reason (this is probably user Error) the EX-1 in 720p is pretty yuck. I couldn't see ever using 720p from the EX1, but then you have such a nice 1080p and HDV-1440 for longer recording times, why would you use 720p?

With the 200A 720p is a time saver, there's no HDV flavor so it's one or the other, with the EX-1 you can save time by using the non Full Raster recording mode which I find rather appealing.

Also, I hope noone assumes that I'm Panasonic ONLY. By no means. It's true, I love me some Panasonic but have plenty of valid reasons why. I'm making another attempt at putting together one of my own shorts here and I'm pretty much decided on using HVX200A + Letus Ultimate instead of the RED ONE based purely on cost and technological issues. With as much action and vfx as I want to do the RED ONE will probably add a bit of complication that I can't afford in the literal sense. Just as well, it takes more money to get one operating up to spec (rentals) than realized.

It would be the same deal if I had an EX-1, I just wouldn't want to risk tracking, panning and incompatible lighting anomalies on project that's thousands deep out of my own pocket. This only means that it's not the right tool for the job, and I've found that the HVX200A sometimes isn't the right tool for the job either. People want to use the RED for it's dynamic range and resolution, and that counts no matter WHAT your delivery format is.

Right tool for the right job peoples.
 
Last edited:
...the EX-1 in 720p is pretty yuck. I couldn't see ever using 720p from the EX1, but then you have such a nice 1080p and HDV-1440 for longer recording times, why would you use 720p?
Click to expand...

Slow-mo. And what I've shot in slow-mo so far is mind-boggling gorgeous!
 
Kholi, thanks a lot for your impressions of noise and low light between the two cameras. I think that I am in the same boat as you for my next camera as I am trying to decided between the EX1 and the HPX170+Nano. At first, I did not want the 170 for the simple reason that I occasionally shoot in low light and I really did not like the noise on the HVX200. But your impressions of the HVX200A may have put this worry to rest. I too have the thought that although it may be a very small gain, that bypassing DVCPRO and recording out the SDI may give me more resolution, and reduce noise perception. If this were the case, and the noise levels turn out to be similar to the EX1, I think that the HPX170 would eliminate worry about rolling shutter issues until that technology matures. After following a thread on REDuser, I believe that the new mysterium X upgrade is going to make strides in improving CMOS shortcomings, in which case I will defininately be getting a Scarlet. But DANG, that EX1 makes some seriously beautiful pictures!
 
oh man... I hate decisions, why cant these cameras cost $5??? lol, Buck, when you can, get some of those vids up, if not, I may just have to wait till july.


Jon
 
It's a very hard decision and I understand where you're coming from. There just is no perfect solution right now, and that's not under 10k, under 100k or anything. There's just NO PERFECT CAMERA in existence right now. If it's got everything you want, the friggin' package is too big to do small work with. Which means you take yourself out of a market where there's definitely a nice amount of money to be made.

If it's small enough to go nearly anywhere, it generally lacks SOMETHING in the image arena. Be it the HVX/HPX170-500's resolution or the EX-1's rolling shutter.

So it's very very very hard to make a choice, man. I still CRAVE the EX-1's resolution. I want it SO bad but without a having a job that I know I can make at least half of it back immediately I can't commit to it. Ideally because I would want to grab an HPX170 to have as well so that bases are covered in the No-Budget Market-- where 35mm Adapters reign.

If I were you and it were that important I would definitely just pay to rent one for a weekend so that you can do the tests on your own. That and a 200A since it's highly representative of the image you'll get from the 170. I had a chance to play with the 170 at Cinegear and it's the exact same image overall.

Rent 'em, Jon. Be the best way to find out where you want your money to go.
 
TheMusician said:
Kholi, thanks a lot for your impressions of noise and low light between the two cameras. I think that I am in the same boat as you for my next camera as I am trying to decided between the EX1 and the HPX170+Nano. At first, I did not want the 170 for the simple reason that I occasionally shoot in low light and I really did not like the noise on the HVX200. But your impressions of the HVX200A may have put this worry to rest. I too have the thought that although it may be a very small gain, that bypassing DVCPRO and recording out the SDI may give me more resolution, and reduce noise perception. If this were the case, and the noise levels turn out to be similar to the EX1, I think that the HPX170 would eliminate worry about rolling shutter issues until that technology matures. After following a thread on REDuser, I believe that the new mysterium X upgrade is going to make strides in improving CMOS shortcomings, in which case I will defininately be getting a Scarlet. But DANG, that EX1 makes some seriously beautiful pictures!
Click to expand...


What kind of stuff will you be shooting? I would search/ask around for low light screen grabs of the HVX200A before deciding.
 
Below is the link to some MTF50 resolution tests I performed on the EX1 for the other site. These numbers were about the same at 60i as the Canon XH-A1, but considerably better at 24p/30p, probably owing to the native progressive sensor. I used the exact same test method for both cams, so the numbers if not comparable to other published numbers on the internet, are still comparable to each other.

At the bottom of the linked page are the screen caps from the Imatest software I used to make the measurements.

I agree that camera A versus camera B topics are generally not helpful.

Resolution Tests
 
thanks tom for the comparison, kholi, I too where at cinegear, the hpx was nice alright. Well as soon as Wayne hooks me up with the new achro for the Sg, I will give BandPro a call and get my hands on an ex1 and see what it is all about. I just nagged Wayne with a pm, so hopefully he replies with some good news, this short I will be doing is a vietnam war film, so hopefully these pieces of equipment mate well for it.


Jon
 
For what it's worth, here's what got me to switch from an HVX200 to an EX1.

-- Record time. I shoot nothing but 1080p30 and a 16 gig card on an HVX is 16 minutes. On an EX1 it's 57 minutes. I carry three 16-gig cards and an 8-gig card, and I'm good for a full 9-hour day on a charter boat or following fly fishermen on the reef.

-- Full 1920x1080 square pixel images with the EX1. It's 1440x1080 with the HVX and it doesn't look quite as detailed.

-- Low light. The EX1 is more sensitive than the HVX. I would say two stops but others have argued otherwise. All I really know is that with the EX1 I can get images in situations that the HVX would be dead in the water... and with a fishing show, "dead in the water" is a bad thing :-)

-- Great dynamic range. How great? I haven't measured it. But I can get details in the brightest parts of cumulus clouds in hard sunlight, and still get faces under the bills of baseball caps.

My experience with it so far is that it does a nice job. The frequent comment from people who have watched the show is, "It looks so clear."

I do a fair number of whip pans and crash zooms to get the camera looking where the action is, and I have yet to hear a single comment about slanted lines, jello-cam or anything out of the ordinary. To the normal TV viewer who doesn't put the show on pause and start going through things one frame at a time, it's just nicely shot fishing action. That's what they care about.

Some of my shooting is done at night under difficult conditions. You're sleeping on rocks without a tent. And when the bell goes off, everyone's scrambling to figure out whose pole is got the fish. Now I fully sympathize with firefighters who have to be ready at a moment's notice. By the way, you have to enjoy living like this to do this kind of work. Whiners need not apply. Low light isn't an option. And with headlamps at all sorts of settings, along with the on-camera light, there's no such thing as "slowing down" the hot spot. The EX1 can often handle those situations without too much trouble.

A recent trip included getting drenched by salt water and blasted by 40 MPH winds. Everything held up nicely. I did have a Petrol (edit: it's a Kata RC-15, not Petrol) cover over the camera and a Lightwave EQ wind fur over the mic. But despite a difficult situation, the images and audio came through nicely, and told a fun story. If I get a chance I'll post part of the show.

Searching the internet for nit-picking anecdotal gripes isn't going to provide a good sense of what the camera can or can't do for any particular application. As many have suggested, the best option is to get your hands on one and use it under the conditions that you expect to work. No camera is going to give you exactly what you want. Not at this price level. But if you can find something that can capture what you need to tell a good story, then there you go.
 
Last edited:
Thanks for the testimonial Dean. If anyone is going to get jellocam, it would be you, because you're on the water a lot. Do you use any stabilizers?

BTW, the native resolution for DVCProHD is 1280x1080. 1440x1080 is the resolution for HDV.
 
Buck Forester said:
Slow-mo. And what I've shot in slow-mo so far is mind-boggling gorgeous!
Click to expand...

dude no offense but you've been saying for weeks or longer that you don't have time to upload any of your footage, but you hope to find time, yet you're in here defending the EX1 to the death 24/7. you could totally have posted some of that footage in a tenth the time you've spent defending the ex1. sorry man not trying to start anything but when i read again in this thread how you wish you had time to post some of your amazing footage, i had to start wondering...
 
Last edited:
Buck Forester said:
I've been waiting for the Petrol rain cover for the EX1 but I haven't seen it available to purchase yet. Where did you get yours?
Click to expand...

Ooops. My bad. It's a Kata RC-15 Compact Rain Cover. Got it from B&H. I got it for the HVX but it also fits the EX1 nicely.

I like it better than some of the others because it slips over the camera quickly yet protects it very well.

I had a Petrol (which also came from B&H) but sold it when I got the Kata.
 
dude no offense but you've been saying for weeks or longer that you don't have time to upload any of your footage, but you hope to find time, yet you're in here defending the EX1 to the death 24/7. you could totally have posted some of that footage in a tenth the time you've spent defending the ex1. sorry man not trying to start anything but when i read again in this thread how you wish you had time to post some of your amazing footage, i had to start wondering...
Click to expand...

doofalot, I can see why you'd say that, not knowing my situation. I work out my house doing commercial insurance inspections so I spend half the day in the field inspecting properties and then much of the day/evening writing up reports.

The other "rep" for our company in this area left and they didn't replace him so my work load right now is insane. Any time I post on the forum is while I'm working on my reports (read, SHOULD be working on my reports, ha!).

I also make a substantial part of my income through licensing images and selling prints from my still photography, as well as some photo related writing for publications. Watch for the September issue of Outdoor Photographer magazine for a full page photo and article on McWay Falls/Big Sur.

My wife stays at home here with our 2 year old boy and is due in two weeks with our second boy. So working 2 jobs (soon to be three with video!), and being a husband and dad is pretty taxing on my time.

I have shot quite a bit of test video with the EX1 (mostly of the neighborhood and family) and I view it on my large displays, but to be honest with you I have no idea yet how to use FCP or edit footage, much less resize it and get it uploaded to a website. I have a HUGE learning curve ahead of me (although it'll probably make sense pretty quickly since I'm familiar with the digital photography workflow and editing in Photoshop).

I used to spend a good part of each year in the wilderness, exploring and fishing the most wild areas in the lower 48... northern Rockies, high Sierra, Lost Coast, etc. I used to take the entire summers off for years to do this, it's what I love. Then I got married a couple of years ago, had a kid, nuther on the way, gained 40 lbs, and now get out about twice a year! Here it is almost July and I haven't even camped this year, much less backpacked or kayaked.

I make good $$ through photography but I could make even more if I could get out more so I'm looking for a lifestyle change, combining photography with high-def videography. In the meantime I have to make a steeeeenkin' living while trying to learn this stuff. I am surrounded by boxes of cool stuff I haven't even opened yet! I'm going into this thing full-bore.

And it appears I spend more time than I do in here because I type re-he-he-heeeeeally fast. Over 90 WPM with gusts up to 120. But mostly when I'm typing it's because my mind is in videography and my body is trying to do boring insurance reports. :)

That's the short version, if you want I can give you the detailed version. NOOooOOoooOOooOOoo!!! AHHhhhHHHhhhhh!
 
Sumfun said:
Thanks for the testimonial Dean. If anyone is going to get jellocam, it would be you, because you're on the water a lot. Do you use any stabilizers?

BTW, the native resolution for DVCProHD is 1280x1080. 1440x1080 is the resolution for HDV.
Click to expand...

No stabilizers except for the one that's built into the camera. I do have a CAVision shoulder mount that keeps the yaw and pitch under control.

I'm considering trying a KenLab gyro sometime soon for the shots from boat-to-boat. The drawback to that is the significant increase in weight. It's already nose heavy with the Sony wide angle adapter. I'm gonna have to start doing some weight lifting!

Only once did I notice an odd rolling shutter effect. It was a close up of a fisherman's hand shaking the fishing pole to make the bait slide down the line (it's a technique called slide baiting where you cast and anchor the weight from a cliff, then slide the bait & hook down afterward). The pole was bending slightly as he was shaking it. But I only noticed it because I was aware of the rolling shutter. I doubt the casual viewer will see it.
 
Buck Forester said:
doofalot, I can see why you'd say that, not knowing my situation. I work out my house doing commercial insurance inspections so I spend half the day in the field inspecting properties and then much of the day/evening writing up reports.

The other "rep" for our company in this area left and they didn't replace him so my work load right now is insane. Any time I post on the forum is while I'm working on my reports (read, SHOULD be working on my reports, ha!).

I also make a substantial part of my income through licensing images and selling prints from my still photography, as well as some photo related writing for publications. Watch for the September issue of Outdoor Photographer magazine for a full page photo and article on McWay Falls/Big Sur.

My wife stays at home here with our 2 year old boy and is due in two weeks with our second boy. So working 2 jobs (soon to be three with video!), and being a husband and dad is pretty taxing on my time.

I have shot quite a bit of test video with the EX1 (mostly of the neighborhood and family) and I view it on my large displays, but to be honest with you I have no idea yet how to use FCP or edit footage, much less resize it and get it uploaded to a website. I have a HUGE learning curve ahead of me (although it'll probably make sense pretty quickly since I'm familiar with the digital photography workflow and editing in Photoshop).

I used to spend a good part of each year in the wilderness, exploring and fishing the most wild areas in the lower 48... northern Rockies, high Sierra, Lost Coast, etc. I used to take the entire summers off for years to do this, it's what I love. Then I got married a couple of years ago, had a kid, nuther on the way, gained 40 lbs, and now get out about twice a year! Here it is almost July and I haven't even camped this year, much less backpacked or kayaked.

I make good $$ through photography but I could make even more if I could get out more so I'm looking for a lifestyle change, combining photography with high-def videography. In the meantime I have to make a steeeeenkin' living while trying to learn this stuff. I am surrounded by boxes of cool stuff I haven't even opened yet! I'm going into this thing full-bore.

And it appears I spend more time than I do in here because I type re-he-he-heeeeeally fast. Over 90 WPM with gusts up to 120. But mostly when I'm typing it's because my mind is in videography and my body is trying to do boring insurance reports. :)

That's the short version, if you want I can give you the detailed version. NOOooOOoooOOooOOoo!!! AHHhhhHHHhhhhh!
Click to expand...

heh, cool bro, sounds like you got your hands full. if you think raising a kid is challenging, wait until you start video editing! :)
 
Thank you all for your input, It seems to be the case of where I dont want to test the EX1 w/o my sgpro working with it, So I must wait for wayne's machine shop to get me one of the newest achros, which is like end of july early August. I kinda want to wait till then cuz I am more interested in the results w/ an adapter than w/o one. If anyone can post the tests I originally asked for, that would be awesome, in the mean time, keep all of us non-owners informed!



Jon
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top