HVX vs. PMW-EX1

Status
Not open for further replies.
doondoon said:
About a month ago I was shooting with the EX1 on a pair of skis probably at about 30-35 MPH at times and then on a snowmobile at even higher speeds (no problem). Two weeks ago I was in a helicopter over downtown Los Angeles with no gyro stabilization head (once again no problem). Perhaps the "JelloVision" footage you saw came from a bad camera or a lousy operator?

Have you spent any real time with the camera ?

I don't mean to be always defending the EX1 on these boards (I know it's a panasonic website)... but it seems like there is unfair and inaccurate information spread around from some HVX fanboys.

For the record I own two HVX-200's and can't wait the the HPX-170... I also have an EX1. They all excel in different places. It's more about YOUR limitations and not the cameras.
Click to expand...

I shot the ©JelloVision myself. Have I spent any time with the camera? The first week I had it, I spend about six hours going through the excellent Vortex Media EX-1 DVD so that I would understand all of the functions of the camera. I am also a former Z1 user so I am more than familiar with Sony low end HD cameras. I shot a four camera cast reunion with a TV show with the EX-1, shot two baseball games, shot a music festival, twelve single camera interviews plus tests with resolution charts, the Letus with and without the optimized achromat. I would estimate that I have shot with the EX-1 in the past three months more than most EX-1 owners have shot since they have owned their cameras.

While I like the HVX and have made a lot of money with it, I am more of a fanboy of the Varicam and the F900, those are the cameras that I regularly use that I really am excited about as I am about the upcoming 2700. The HVX is a good camera for the money but is noisy, has a so-so lens, terrible lcd. The EX-1 is a good camera for the money but has rolling shutter artifacts, limited color space and an arcane menu system.

As far as the information I observed when shooting the camera being inaccurate, (how can artifacting be inaccurate if it's 'there'?) I don't think so. The camera has weird and obvious artifacts on any fast pans, end of story. Go shoot a footbal, baseball game or any kind of car racing, I have shot all three with the EX-1. Useless for those types of shoots, the artifact is not subtle, it's very noticeable. and bizarre looking. I have shot with three different EX-1s in the past month and they all exhibit it. It was most noticeable when shooting baseball, in 720/24P at 60 frames per second. On the pans from home to first and third to home, even my 13 year old daughter, who was in the edit bay and occasionally edits her own stuff, observed the effect and asked, "what filter did you use in FCP so get that weird rubbery look?" She knew nothing about the rolling shutter, or even which camera I shot it on so there you have it. When an audience notices the effect and remarks on it, unsolicited, that is a drawback and limitation. Depending on what you are shooting, perhaps a dealbreaker, perhaps not.

MY Limitations? I shot the footage, I hooked up the EX-1 to a Hi-Def monitor via SDI and I observed. That's a pretty straightforward workflow, huh? Sharper, better latitude and very pleasing picture but it sucks for high speed pans and fast motion. It's a cheap camcorder, it makes nice pictures, I would use it for interviews or more sedate movement in a heartbeat. I am beginning a whole round of documentary interviews for Paramount which will be shot on the EX-1 as they require 1080 origination, not just 1080 master delivery and dealing with the short 1080 runtimes of the P2 cards is a joke. The company I am shooting for has three HVXs and two EX-1s. So we are shooting with the EX-1. I am happy about it, no problem. I like your camera, you are obviously an EX-1 fanboy so I am on your team. But if the project was shooting a car chase or a baseball game, wrong tool for the job.

©JelloVision exists. Now all we have to worry about is a lawsuit from Kraft Foods for usurping their product name.

D
 
Kholi said:
I think Dan posted a pretty fair asessment on the EX-1 just a page prior. Even the RED exhibits wobble and I've seen it first hand from personal use. CMOS is CMOS at this point in time. If the wobble is okay for you then cool. Its been established that the image does wobble however.

"fanboy" works both ways and is a term usually spat out on biases to begin with.

In regards to the neverending debate on this camera versus that: if it don't make dollars then it don't make sense. The HVX200 line will continue to do dominate the market regardless of resolution. DVCproHD will continue to expand regardless of what may be considered flawed or outdated. If you have the choice and you don't really deal with clients directly then you have the ability to go with whatever you like. If you don't have the money to own both and this market is what puts Candy in your coat pocket then all of the numbers don't matter. The 200a and upcoming hpx170 will be the bread winner.
Perspective: I couldve rented a major client a RED ONE package foe the same price as my HVX200A + Ultimate package on a two different occasions in which I enacted as DP. Needless to say my 200A is officialy paid off after three to four weeks of ownership and Im now simply waiting for the HPX170 and a Convergent Designs box.

Perhaps if I could survive doing just my own work I would choose an ex1 or even an xha1. The proofs in the pudding and I would hope you want the pudding to be in your pocket.
Click to expand...



man, paid off in that short amount of time? What do you do, i must know!
 
I'm surprise how many people own both cameras!

That's the solution if you can afford.
$$$

Kholi, I mostly worked for myself and my films don't tend to have a lot of fast action on it. But when choosing a camera one wants the best possible combination of practicability and performance. Of course same goes for the "bread and butter" case.

I was very surprised after working a few times if the EX-1. The LCD by itself made an incredible difference in my confidence framing, exposing, etc... But to get an expected "jellovision" effect must be infuriating.

Anyways the debate moves on... Which is all good fanboys!
 
EX1 Long Gop Problems

EX1 Long Gop Problems

Hi there

I have been posting a thread on creativecow about the blurrs on the EX1 copmared to the HVX201 and the Z7.

The thread is

http://forums.creativecow.net/readpost/142/858581

But as I don't want to make publicity for creativecow here's my first post again.
I am also uploading alot of clips right now. Takes some time but I will let you know the link very soon.

Hi

I recently tested the Ex1 to the Sony HVR Z7 to the Panasonic HVX201AE and found some very interesting problems regarding the EX1. We shot all kinds of scenes incl. Indoors, Outdoors, Sunset, Dusk all in 25p...and watched all the results on a Baselight System projected in 2k on a big cinema screen. The tests were done for an upcoming cinema documentary.

At first we all loved the EX1 for sharpness, latitude, color rendition and especially for its low-light capabilities. But all this love went away when we looked at shots were the camera moved. On slow pans across f.e. a green grass in the foreground and a city in the background the image suddenly went totally blury. At first we thought the camera was out of focus but as soon as the camera stopped the stellar sharpness was back. On the next telephoto pan across the city skyline all detail was lost as long as the camera moved. It was just a big blur. But it wasn't motion blurr due to the 25p it was a compression issue. On a shot watching cars drive through the frame the cars looked like ghost images. Totally unsharp but when I started panning with the cars the were totally sharp again. What was the worst though was panning across a field of grass. All detail was gone as long as the camera moved and it was back when the camera stopped. But the killer was when shooting handheld on a second day of tests. The person was walking and as log as he moved with the camera everyting wa fine but as soon as the camera would move out of sync with the person he went blurry.Again it did not look like motion blur. When looking at it in single frames we noticed that only every 8th frame was totally sharp everything else was blurred. We compared all this to identical shots with a Sony HVR Z7 on HDV and the problem was negligible. You could see some motion blurs but nothing that would feel unnatural. The images on the Z7 remained sharp throughout much of the shots even though both cameras use LongGop encoding. When contemplating about this problems my conclusion is that the EX1 due to its higher resolution also has a stronger compression. When the camera starts moving the compression suddenly kicks in and makes it highly visible. Even minor, very slow movements cause this problem. We watched the footage on a 25foot screen which made it highly visible but even on a 42" Plasma a home it was very noticeable. I am deeply disappointed about this as this LongGop Issue makes the EX1 unusable for big screen projects. The HDV performed much better even though it didn't have the latitude. But compared on a splitscreen with the EX1 it seems to be the better choice.

Has anybody seen this problem or any thoughts about it? I would have preferred the EX1 because it also offer 60p slowmo and is very good in low light. But I can't live with these blurr issues unless some solution is found.

Best wishes

Richard Ladkani


www.richardladkani.com
 
PaPa said:
man, paid off in that short amount of time? What do you do, i must know!
Click to expand...

Not as much as some of our users but enough. I've only been doing commercial and narrative work. I've personally done very little talking heads stuff, the brunt of my income is derived from short films and commercial work... would love to do some music videos.

On commercial: one of the biggest talking head facilitators in the industry, Guthy-Renker, LLC-- responsible for Proactiv and a ton of other infamous productions-- just informed us this past week that they would like to move their entire post production workflow to DVCproHD and P2 Media. These guys generate, without exaggeration, millions of dollars in revenue each year and over the past year working exclusively with GRC I've been able to go into the talking heads industry at a completely different level. Although I do know of one particular Cinematographer that also works for these guys that's shooting RED ONE, they've specifically asked for the quality and efficiency of the DVCProHD P2 Workflow.

I'm excited about that, and it's just another testament to Panasonics post workflow expanding.
 
alexdias said:
I'm surprise how many people own both cameras!

That's the solution if you can afford.
$$$

Kholi, I mostly worked for myself and my films don't tend to have a lot of fast action on it. But when choosing a camera one wants the best possible combination of practicability and performance. Of course same goes for the "bread and butter" case.

I was very surprised after working a few times if the EX-1. The LCD by itself made an incredible difference in my confidence framing, exposing, etc... But to get an expected "jellovision" effect must be infuriating.

Anyways the debate moves on... Which is all good fanboys!
Click to expand...

I personally couldn't go the route of owning two cameras (reconsidering this for the impending release of Scarlet in 2010 ~ 2011) but if you CAN do that then that's having the best of both worlds.

You should always choose what's best for yourself. I chose to grab the newest version of the camera that's currently hot in the market, still-so after about two years. I guess some would say "if you're good you can sell any camera."... why make it hard on yourself if that's where the money comes from?

In all fairness, however, I AM going to be using the nanoFlash to stretch the HPX170 a little further than it's standard capacity, so perhaps that's like owning two cameras in one.
 
rladkani said:
Hi there

snip
All detail was gone as long as the camera moved and it was back when the camera stopped. But the killer was when shooting handheld on a second day of tests. The person was walking and as log as he moved with the camera everyting wa fine but as soon as the camera would move out of sync with the person he went blurry.

snip

Richard Ladkani


www.richardladkani.com
Click to expand...

Hi Richard

I've seen similar blur issues with the HV20 while panning (slowly) across green grass. As soon as the slow pan stopped the image sharpened right up. My tests with the HVX didn't have this blatant blur effect while doing slow pans of fine grass.

I suspect this blur issue is related to long GOP without enough BW. Not sure if it's strictly a CMOS issue. Perhaps the experts can chime in here.

regards
JohnG
 
Koli, if you could answer a real important question for me I'd realy appreciate it.

I have both the canon a1 and the new hvx200a in which is definitey better with grain and low light, but I'm contemplating sending the hvx200a back because the images that i'm getting out of my a1 and sgpro are top notch to me, so my question to you is, since you used both of these cams, which one would you be more confident in shooting with if it were your own feature film, and how do you think the color otf the a1 would hold up in comparison to the new hvx200a? any help is appreciated.
 
reem12 said:
Koli, if you could answer a real important question for me I'd realy appreciate it.

I have both the canon a1 and the new hvx200a in which is definitey better with grain and low light, but I'm contemplating sending the hvx200a back because the images that i'm getting out of my a1 and sgpro are top notch to me, so my question to you is, since you used both of these cams, which one would you be more confident in shooting with if it were your own feature film, and how do you think the color otf the a1 would hold up in comparison to the new hvx200a? any help is appreciated.
Click to expand...

If you would've asked me this question pre-200A I wouldn't have had a single problem saying Canon XH-A1. At the moment, all things considered, both cameras are on par with each other. The 200 wasn't, and that was because of it's lowlight performance and EXCESSIVE amount of noise. Ugh.

The A1, to me, still resolves a bit more detail than the 200 line-up and I really like the H1, G1, and A1's overall image aesthetic. It's different than the 200 but not bad. Yet, at this point I'd rather shoot a feature with a 200A. Specifically because the noise floor's a lot better and that means a much better path toward color grading and image manipulation in post altogether. The A1's image, while it actually holds up decently, won't give you the same flexibility in post. And a large chunk of beauty, as far as video is concerned, is achieved in post.

So for a feature? At this point in time? A1 vs HVX200A? I'd definitely go 200A and the best adapter/lenses combination I could get my hands on.

In the very near future my answer's gonna be: HPX170 + nanoFlash + Best Adapter + Best Glass.
 
ok finally the uploads have completed. Now let's talk about what we see here.

EX1 compared to the HVR Z7

Please check this link

http://www.richardladkani.com/cameratest_main/cameratest/index.html

You will find about 10 shots aswell as screenshots taken from the same footage.
you will have to download the quicktimes as source to see it in its original quality and full screen. Just click download on the detail page of the movieclip.

Let's see what you have to say to these clips.

All the best
Richard

www.richardladkani.com
 
I guess my questions resonates more to: How did you find such gigs? Personal friends? Did you whore yourself out? Puts ads in the papers? How did you find your resources?
 
puredrifting said:
As far as the information I observed when shooting the camera being inaccurate, (how can artifacting be inaccurate if it's 'there'?) I don't think so.
Click to expand...

This is exactly the way I see it too. Only the artifacting is NOT there in my footage.

And I'm NOT a sony fanboy. I really don't care what camera I'm using as long as it's the right TOOL for the job. Having said that I own more Panasonic gear than any other brand... and yes, like you I shoot on much bigger cameras for big fancy companies... so I'm not sweating it in "that" respect... but who really cares anyway?

I just find it irritating when people start regurgitating little bits of mis-information about equipment (no matter what it is) when they really haven't had much practical experience with it. It is clear that you're not one of these people. One thing I can say for certain is that we've had different experiences with the EX1 in terms of your JelloVision.

I haven't personally seen it.. at least the JelloVision will give all the HVX fanboys more ammunition to defend the holy grail (which they may not even own or use)... but hey at least they're part of something.

We're all involved in a soap opera and I'm just as guilty as the next guy.
Please excuse me, I'm missing the Jerry Springer show.:2vrolijk_08:
 
I guess my question now is why can't Panasonic introduce bigger chips at the HVX price level? Are they afraid of taking business away from their higher end cameras?
 
PaPa said:
I guess my questions resonates more to: How did you find such gigs? Personal friends? Did you whore yourself out? Puts ads in the papers? How did you find your resources?
Click to expand...

Everything's referral and repeat client.

I wish I would've started doing all of this earlier on but it's only been just over 2 1/2 years for me. I was lucky enough to start in Camera Department working for a company here in LA and my supervisor was a DGA guy that taught me quite a bit in just months.

Just got an HVX200 the first chance I had and started shooting for people, the more you do it the more-often paying work comes along. Not to say I don't do favors, though! I'll still go out and shoot for pennies for a friend or if the project is exceptional. However, I rarely ever lowball my services. I'm not the greatest ever but I'm confident in what I do know and tend to stick with my requested rates.

One thing that constantly happens with people in our arena is that they feel that they need to sell themselves as a "cheap" alternative. You NEVER sell on cost. EVER. People are willing to pay for results, and to be frank they're gonna give you a headache until they get results so why shouldn't they pay for it? The only time you should ever break your rate should be when you feel that you want to do this person or that person a favor. You really like them, you believe in their cause, or you just plain out want to work. Make sure the headache is worth it because there WILL be a headache at some point or another.
 
doondoon said:
I just find it irritating when people start regurgitating little bits of mis-information about equipment (no matter what it is) when they really haven't had much practical experience with it.
Click to expand...

However, that is the nature of internet forum.

Unless the OP specifics limits responses to exclusively first hand opinions, many of us may have anecdotal experiences as well, such as viewing footage, exchanging information with those that have shot it, and reading on line reviews by respected and objective reviewers.

Just because you haven't used a cam doesn't mean you have learned something you can contribute about its capabilities.

The trick of course is to flesh out fact from opinion. I've and I am certain others have read some reviews of the EX1 that basically mask a reviewer's guide issued by Sony.

I think the cam is great, and wish Panasonic with incorporate larger sensors with the DVCProHD codec, a better LCD, and many of the features available in the Sony -- even at its price point. That would be nice.
 
David S. said:
However, that is the nature of internet forum.


I think the cam is great, and wish Panasonic with incorporate larger sensors with the DVCProHD codec, a better LCD, and many of the features available in the Sony -- even at its price point. That would be nice.
Click to expand...

Yes it is. it's my addiction :Drogar-Dolar(DBG):

Yeah, I wish panasonic would give us a body (about the size/ form factor of the HVX) with a removable lens, 1/2" cmos chip with global shutter) and 100mbps codec... but there is no hope in that regard at least for like another few years.

I'm certain they won't because a camera like that would probably canibalize (or at least cut into) the bigger cams in their line up.

Looks like the EX3 is going to be close. Perhaps this camera in unison with the P+S adapter "c" (for compact), a nice 35-cine zoom and the new convergent design flash box (when 10-bit is available) will be an amazing set up. The only obvious problem being price for all this stuff... and then why not just shoot on RED. Which is what most people requiring these kinds of specs are doing anyway.
 
Because RED is not universal. And it won't cost as much as a RED ONE working package to begin with. The highest concentration of RED ONE cameras is in Los Angeles. Of those only a handful are claiming all of the RED ONE work. Ask a private RED ONE owner how work is going lately. Bring a handkerchief.

And Panasonic won't be giving you anything CMOS until CMOS can match CCD for universal applications. It can't. If you want 1/2" and the rest of that then Sony will be your best bet, if you want something that's universal then the 200A or HPX500 is your choice.

Furthermore, the HVX200 already shoots 100mpbs. More mis-information being spread. The 720p stream is always 60p, it strips out the uneeded frames in pN leaving you with 40% of the data left. This is not to say that "it's 40mbps", it's doing the same thing you would do if you shot 720p24p and dumped the remainder of the data.

I will say an A+ for Mike and Co's XDR and soon-to-be nanoFlash for any system sub HPX2000/3000 with SDI. A camera like the EX-1 can surely benefit from having a better codec altogether, the 170's sure to be a blast with either unit connected.
 
Last edited:
I would not swear that this is the final word, but I read somehwere a quote from Mike Curtis or Jan or someone alluding to we will not see 1/2" or 2/3" CCDs in a package as small as the HPX-170/HVX-200A because of heat buildup and power requirements. That is supposed to be one big advantage of the CMOS imager, it needs less power and generates less heat than a CCD.

So unless Panasonic is willing to increase the size of the HVX/HPX cameras, I don't think that we will see larger than 1/3" CCDs. I cannot wait to try the HPX-170 and see what Panasonic can get out of the better new chipset.

Dan
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top