Camera Purchase - Narrowing my Decision Down to 3 Possibilities

armadillo said:
Okay, so I'm definitely outing myself as less knowledgeable than I thought but I appreciate the information I'm getting from you guys.

My question to Barry is, then what is the huge benefit of changeable lenses on the XLH1A if you still need an adaptor for proper DOF?

For Davide, are you saying that an A1 and Letus Extreme or Brevis 35 won't give me the results I want and that I'll need the Canon adaptor? Or are you only saying that I'll need their adaptor if I want to use Canon lenses. In which case, I think I'm happy with a Letus and Nikon lenses...

Thanks guys. And if you grow impatient, remember we all had to start somewhere...
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Hi,

Actually I didn't mention the A1 in my post. I was talking about the XL series cameras (xl2, xhl1, etc.). My points were a) you can't put 35mm Canon lenses on the XL seriess cameras unless you have an EF adaptor and b) they won't have 35mm depth of field and c) they will have their field of view multiplied by about 7.8 so that a 50mm lens (which is a 'normal focal length on 35mm) will become almost 400mm on the canon xl + ef adapter.

You seemed to be of the belief that you could get 35mm DOF with the Canon XL camera since it allowed you to change lenses. I wanted to let you know that this wasn't the case so that you wouldn't buy one based off of that misconception. If you want to get 35mm DOF with the XLH1 you'll need to use a 35mm adapter like the brevis, letus, m2, etc.

You can definitely use the Brevis with the XHA1 camera and you can use it with whatever lenses you want. In fact, Dennis Wood, the manufacturer of the Brevis, uses an XHA1 for a lot of the internal testing of that adapter.

davide
 
armadillo said:
I appreciate the advice, but I definitely welcome anything you might have to back up the suggestion.

My understanding of the HVX as it relates to the A1...

Almost $2000 more (more than DOF Adaptor with Rails)
Same Frame Rate Capability (24F vs 24P seems to be largely much ado about nothing)
Better Colorspace - Gotta give this to the HVX
Better Audio Sampling
Weaker Zoom in Lens
Weaker in Low Light (could be exacerbated with an adaptor)

Anyway, I welcome any feedback.
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A couple things to keep in mind:

The HVX can do variable frame rates from 1-60 frames per second. The XHA1 can't. Also, the current HVX model, the HVX200a is better in low light than the xha1.

davide
 
I don't have any problem with filming time with my 2 16GB cards. I can record any conference without having to switch them out once. They can record longer than a tape in 720pn mode. So that is not really a disadvantage. Loading them is much faster, and unless you plan on buying a hdv player to capture, you will be using up those precious tape heads on capturing footage in real time (MUCH SLOWER) than if you get the HVX200. I can capture a 16GB card in less than 10 minutes. Thats 40 minutes of footage. That saves 30 minutes of capture time for every card. ALSO it comes with one 16GB card, and a book written by Barry Green explaining how to use the camera along with a lot of other great information. This book also has several recipes that Barry came up with in the CD that you can play with. I highly recommend this camera. With or without lens adapters. Look at the timefest grabs for Netherborn. That is the HVX200 with the brevis adapter and nikon lenses.
 
davide said:
Hi,

Actually I didn't mention the A1 in my post. I was talking about the XL series cameras (xl2, xhl1, etc.). My points were a) you can't put 35mm Canon lenses on the XL seriess cameras unless you have an EF adaptor and b) they won't have 35mm depth of field and c) they will have their field of view multiplied by about 7.8 so that a 50mm lens (which is a 'normal focal length on 35mm) will become almost 400mm on the canon xl + ef adapter.

You seemed to be of the belief that you could get 35mm DOF with the Canon XL camera since it allowed you to change lenses. I wanted to let you know that this wasn't the case so that you wouldn't buy one based off of that misconception. If you want to get 35mm DOF with the XLH1 you'll need to use a 35mm adapter like the brevis, letus, m2, etc.

You can definitely use the Brevis with the XHA1 camera and you can use it with whatever lenses you want. In fact, Dennis Wood, the manufacturer of the Brevis, uses an XHA1 for a lot of the internal testing of that adapter.

davide
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Clarified and appreciated... Back to pondering...
 
Just adressing the question at hand, the question you asked...since you said you already ruled out the HVX, I think the XH-A1 is a great way to go for you since you seem to want the DOF adapter. Economically, that is.

The DOF adapter and lens and monitor and rails and follow focus to make it all usable will add a ton onto your total budget, so you should go with the cheaper option. I mean all 3 of these cameras are more than capable. They are all very good prosumer cams. So if budget is a big consideration and you definitely will get a DOF adapter, the most affordable option makes sense imho.
 
Jared said:
Just adressing the question at hand, the question you asked...since you said you already ruled out the HVX, I think the XH-A1 is a great way to go for you since you seem to want the DOF adapter. Economically, that is.

The DOF adapter and lens and monitor and rails and follow focus to make it all usable will add a ton onto your total budget, so you should go with the cheaper option. I mean all 3 of these cameras are more than capable. They are all very good prosumer cams. So if budget is a big consideration and you definitely will get a DOF adapter, the most affordable option makes sense imho.
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Thanks for the feedback...

And I am now also beginning to let the HVX200(A) back into consideration... Heh...
 
Have you read the HVX vs Canon feature on this site. It's pretty informative. Keep in mind, though, as you read it that the colors are factory-default. I looked at the facts and that review and chose the Canon. A lot of people see the same info and choose the HVX (also worth noting that the new model will change things a bit). Bottom line, it's not as nerve-racking as it sounds because either way you will end up with a great camera.
 
I was undecided between the H1, HVX or A1 till recently, so I hope my inputs here can help you:

First, i belive you are narrowing it down to the A1 or the HVX (if i'm wrong please correct me on this one) and, in my opinion, they are both excellent cameras, with pros and cons. The main question is what do you want to use them for, and wich one better suits your objectives.

Second, the HVX is better. Period. It's not much better, it's just better. But the question I think you should ask yourself (I know I did...) is if that diference is worth the money that you'll have to pay extra to get the HVX (and notice: this extra money will also be spent in P2 cards, not just when you buy it). In my opinion, it isn't, simply because they are very similiar, and the extra quality that comes with the HVX is not worth it (again, my opinion).

Third, the canon can do pretty much everything the HVX can, and by buying it, you'l save money, and with the right supporting gear, the canon is actually capable of extraordinary performances.

The last, and most import point is this one: Stop considering it. Just buy it. You're wasting time you could be using learning how to get the best of your new camera... I'm not saying you should't think it over, just that it won't make a real difference wich one you choose, they are both exceptional... The important thing is to have projects, to work with it, and choosing the A1 or the HVX won't make a difference on that.

I choose the A1, just think is the best deal. Also, I need the extra bucks :)
 
One thing to bear in mind is that there are plenty of adapters the let you either put a nice 35dof adapter directly onto any of these cameras, but only the H1 lets you put a lens directly on there, so you can take a nice angenieux or cooke lens and put it on your H1, and then by controlling the light via filters or lighting you can then control your DOF. I have shot lots with other people's HVX A1 H1 and I still have my XL2 while I wait to sabe up for the H1. If you can do it, then get that camera or... wait for scarlet and that will be of great interest... but buy something and get shootin.
 
Seriously, go with the HVX.

The canon can't do nearly as much as an HVX. No 720p, no 60p no P anything really, just their proprietary frame crap. And the HVXa is going to be better in low light. I am somewhat biased as I have had multiple canon cameras crap out on me so I decided to stay away. When I had my a1 I loved the image that it produced, great image, but is it as flexible as the HVX? NO.

I personally shoot everything from shorts to action sports so the one super huge feature is the 60p. But if you dont plan on doing any slow-mo, like using tape, having no options but 1080i or SD then go with the canon.

I should also mention that I have never owned an HVX just the A1.
 
Thanks and Nearing the End...

Thanks and Nearing the End...

Thecreativeidea said:
I was undecided between the H1, HVX or A1 till recently, so I hope my inputs here can help you:

First, i belive you are narrowing it down to the A1 or the HVX (if i'm wrong please correct me on this one) and, in my opinion, they are both excellent cameras, with pros and cons. The main question is what do you want to use them for, and wich one better suits your objectives.

Second, the HVX is better. Period. It's not much better, it's just better. But the question I think you should ask yourself (I know I did...) is if that diference is worth the money that you'll have to pay extra to get the HVX (and notice: this extra money will also be spent in P2 cards, not just when you buy it). In my opinion, it isn't, simply because they are very similiar, and the extra quality that comes with the HVX is not worth it (again, my opinion).

Third, the canon can do pretty much everything the HVX can, and by buying it, you'l save money, and with the right supporting gear, the canon is actually capable of extraordinary performances.

The last, and most import point is this one: Stop considering it. Just buy it. You're wasting time you could be using learning how to get the best of your new camera... I'm not saying you should't think it over, just that it won't make a real difference wich one you choose, they are both exceptional... The important thing is to have projects, to work with it, and choosing the A1 or the HVX won't make a difference on that.

I choose the A1, just think is the best deal. Also, I need the extra bucks :)
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Hi and thanks. I've received a lot of feedback I've appreciated but you seem to have taken some time to tailor your thoughts to my situation.

I agree 100% on make a decision and get out there and do it. I'm already quite familiar with the A1. I've worked with it a lot and I'm comfortable with it but also aware of its limitations (not all of which will be cured with th HVX).

You are right, indeed. I've pretty much narrowed it down to the A1 and the HVX. And I probably have a couple more days of heavy research and teetering back and forth before I just close the book on this one and move forward. But it's a big decision so I'm just comparing as much footage as possible and so on...

My main use for the camera will be internet content (for which the A1 is more than sufficient) but also an upcoming indie feature that will be shot largely in close spaces (taking the old A1 back up and zoom tactic out of the equation - and necessitating the other item where I am balancing brands and models, the DOF adaptor- don't get me started there).

Regarding the A1 and HVX-A...

I am in agreement that the HVX is a little better. My big conflict is whether the extra $3K (including an additional 16G P2) is worth the improved colorspace (I keep trying to convince myself that the A1 properly used is comparable to my eye), and avoiding issues of broadcasters not being down with the A1 codec. And the handful of other HVX perks...

Anyway, thanks for your thoughts and I do appreciate how helpful everyone has been on my thread so far. I know I'm not the first guy on a forum to hem and haw about the camera he is going to buy.
 
The extra color space only makes a difference if you do heavy color correcting or chroma keying. Actually, untouched XH-A1 footage vs. untouched HVX footage is sharper and has more resolution.

I love the HVX because the image has a special quality that is unique to Panasonic, even though the resolution is noticeably lower than Canon and Sony. The footage from Canon and Sony looks a lot like boring broadcast video unless you manipulate in post.


Marco
 
Agreed A1 color out of the box is nasty but I am reasonably good at getting what I want in post. I will be doing a reasonable amount of color keying, though...
 
I am in agreement that the HVX is a little better. My big conflict is whether the extra $3K (including an additional 16G P2) is worth the improved colorspace (I keep trying to convince myself that the A1 properly used is comparable to my eye), and avoiding issues of broadcasters not being down with the A1 codec. And the handful of other HVX perks...
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I'm gonna use mine to direct small features, maybe an indie film (about 80 minutes) sometime this year, and I'm confident that the A1 will rise to the task. I understand why you're hesitating, but I would rather use the extra $3k to buy an 35 mm adapter (The Redrock M2 complete package is about $2.5K, for example - you'll still save 500$...) or any other supporting gear that you need for your projects.

My point is, do you really need to spent 3000 $ on a slight image improvement? Don't start wondering (like I did) "What if the difference is worth the price?" "What if I regret not spending some more extra cash and buying the HVX?". Let's be real here: If you know how to use it, the A1 is capable of whatever you need. I've seen unbelivable footage shot with the A1, inside and outside, low light and bright day. I searched youtube for image tests, read reviews after reviews.

The result: A1. It's not as good as it could be, but neither the HVX is compared to red :). I took 2 months to reach this conclusion, and I'm glad I saved the extra bucks, I' m gonna need them for my upcoming short so I made the right call, I hope you do to and be sure to say something when you do.

"The hard thing is to have a good idea. When she appears, everything becomes easier" Woody allen :)
 
Thecreativeidea said:
The result: A1. It's not as good as it could be, but neither the HVX is compared to red :).
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Excuse the language but... **** red. Red is so impractical. Even HD is still somewhat awkward. I'm sure there are a handful of people out there who actually have a blue-ray burner, or who put their movie on celluloid for the big screen, but for everyone else its all such BS.
 
After selling my hVX, because the storage times on the P2 cards was frustratingly way too short and the image quality was surpassed by even cheaper cams, i started to look at the canons and they where to my surprise great. I believed all the negatives about HDV before I ever tried it and I have to say I was misled. I feel freed from time constraints.

Not wanting to get into cam war on this but the A1 is a great cam with great image with longer record times and is cheaper than the HVX. So much so that the Crank 2 is shooting with it.

I also just bought the canon HF10 and I am ecstatic about what a great image it gets for such a small AVcHD CMOS cam. Looking at the images on my monitor this little cam , and my memory of the HVX images, it equals or betters the HVX res. And rolling shutter 4:2:0 8bit has not bothered me one bit.

All that said, I am about to purchase the EX1.
 
Hi, I just thought I'd make a post since much of the DVXuser community took its time to help me out here. Really tough decision but I'm going with the A1 here, in case anyone wanted to know which way I veered in the end.

I'm more familiar with Canon and won't lose time getting up to speed on the product, which is one reason. The other is the savings that can be applied to other areas of my production. Finally, many aspects of the primary piece I am working on are largely bleak with muted or bleached colors, so I expect the reduced colorspace of the A1 vs the HVX will be slightly less problematic.

Now I get to decide which adapter, ugh. Thinking Brevis mainly because it is virtually impossible to get good data from shootout comparisons or scientific evaluations of the various brands. (which is quite difficult to believe given that the market is essentially cornered by a few brands, the product is expensive, and there is a strong niche market eagerly interested in comparing them).

Anyway, thanks for the help everyone and you did aid me in learning more about the models involved and cameras in general. I look forward to showing you the work that results...
 
Hey armadillo,

I could be wrong here... but I'm pretty sure you are generalizing the A1 as having a reduced color space in comparison to the HVX...

I think the HVX has a 4:1:1 color space when shooting in 1080i/p... It's only when you shoot in 720i/p that you have the benefit of a 4:2:2 color space.

This leads me to another point... I'm remembering a thread I read a while back discussing the color space and overall image quality of 4:2:2 720p vs. 4:1:1 (or 4:2:0) 1080p downsampled in post to 720p. The consensus was that the color space and image quality of video shot in 4:1:1 1080p then downsampled would be superior to video shot in 4:2:2 720p.

So, this means... you wouldn't be gaining any color space advantage with the HVX over the A1. If you wanted 4:2:2 quality colors in a 720p resolution, just downsample in post.

Now, I understand that this might not be the best option for some people. Due to time constraints or whatever, you might not want to downsample your footage in post. Here the HVX has the advantage in flexibility in that it can just shoot a nice 4:2:2 720p image right in the camera... and you get multiple frame options to boot.

Quality wise... the A1 is the same (if not better) but it just takes a little bit more work to get there...
 
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