use your DVX as long as you can..... Work it for every cent its worth. then go HD when you absolutly must. plus by then you'll have saved up more money, and be ready to buythe cutting edge technology then.
Hvx200a
- Thread starter vip77
- Start date
Despite what Panasonic are saying the reality is any replacement for the HVX200 wishing to compete in the sub 10K promsumer market, is going to have to up it's feature set to remain compeditive.
Henry Ford's saying "you can have it in any colour you like as long as it's black" does not wash in an open and free market. We can see this in all areas of manufacturing.
Items once seen as optional in cars 5 years ago ( such as ABS and AirBags ) are now standard features. It is the demand for these features that drive manufacturers to produce these products. Take the Red camera for instance.
With Sony's new interchangeable lens HDV camera they are responding to customers wants; albeit without tackling the 1/3 sensor image problems, resolution and low light issues.
For what it's worth I believe that if Panasonic does not provide interchangeable lenses along with at least SDI output 10bit 4:2:2 recording option and the most contentious item 2/3' sensor they will shoot themselfs in the foot for the next three to five year.
The HVX is over 2 years old at this stage. The next update is crucial. With Red's Scarlet on the horizon and a number of prosumer cameras in development from Sony, Canon and JVC this update is important as it is likely to take Panasonic at least another two years to bring a new product to market without compromising existing models.
The HVX has played a major role in the acceptance and integration of HD and P2 into the everyday film and television environment, but in order to stay ahead Panasonic are going to have to continue to be innovative and lead the way in this field.
Henry Ford's saying "you can have it in any colour you like as long as it's black" does not wash in an open and free market. We can see this in all areas of manufacturing.
Items once seen as optional in cars 5 years ago ( such as ABS and AirBags ) are now standard features. It is the demand for these features that drive manufacturers to produce these products. Take the Red camera for instance.
With Sony's new interchangeable lens HDV camera they are responding to customers wants; albeit without tackling the 1/3 sensor image problems, resolution and low light issues.
For what it's worth I believe that if Panasonic does not provide interchangeable lenses along with at least SDI output 10bit 4:2:2 recording option and the most contentious item 2/3' sensor they will shoot themselfs in the foot for the next three to five year.
The HVX is over 2 years old at this stage. The next update is crucial. With Red's Scarlet on the horizon and a number of prosumer cameras in development from Sony, Canon and JVC this update is important as it is likely to take Panasonic at least another two years to bring a new product to market without compromising existing models.
The HVX has played a major role in the acceptance and integration of HD and P2 into the everyday film and television environment, but in order to stay ahead Panasonic are going to have to continue to be innovative and lead the way in this field.
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puredrifting
Major Contributor
Hi:
Panasonic already makes this camera, it's called the HPX-500. Why would they take a 2/3" broadcast design and try to sell it for under $10,000.00? That would be a bad marketing decision.
I would think 1/2" chips, a high quality LCD and possibly a removable lens with SDI would keep them on par with the EX-1. If they offer more, they instantly obsolete the HPX-500. Manufacturers do compete amongst their own product lines but they never want to obsolete a superior product with a much less expensive one unless they are discontinuing the older more expensive product. Panasonic is selling a LOT of HPX-500s and it was just introduced recently so the chances of that are nil.
Best,
Dan
I think you can probably rule out interchangeable lenses. Honestly, howmany people with a JVC HD100 have bothered changing lenses. And honestly who even makes a lens designed for a 1/3" sensor anyway. MAybe Canon for the XL lines, but are they even compatible?
Most likely, the next Prosumer HVX replacement camera will be 99% HVX. the changes will be things like, Waveform bulit in, Flip option, maybe a Better LCD. im thinking thats about it.... the guts will most likely remain the same.
Most likely, the next Prosumer HVX replacement camera will be 99% HVX. the changes will be things like, Waveform bulit in, Flip option, maybe a Better LCD. im thinking thats about it.... the guts will most likely remain the same.
For some reason I can't see 1/2" Chips appearing in the new HVX200. This is why I'm hoping "New" 1/3" CCDs means improved chips with improved Light Sensitivity or Low Light performance.
We're all hoping Panasonic (or Canon, for me) drops something great their next go around. The HMC150 honestly looks like a great DVX100 upgrade, I would really like my next HVX or cam to be another nice step forward and preferably with Pana or Canon flavor.
If Canon and Pana don't deliver, and Scarlet is nowhere to be bought within the next few years I can see the EX-1's popularity growing amongst the low budgeteers that have been ritually requesting the HVX200, thus forcing even ME to switch over. Afterall, for a lot of us it's the primary source of income and how we get great jobs, connects, etc.
It's either that or step up to an HPX500 + Relay setup and at that point and that's not exactly the cheapest camera around (for some of us.)
It's bordering RED TERRITORY once you grab the Relay unit, and with RED ONE's being mass produced I think I would forego an HPX500 + RELAY myself and just snag up a RED body and a Nikon mount, etc.
=\ In short: Pana and Canon? Please give me something that's at least on PAR with the EX-1 and at a lower price point. The rest is just inherent to the brands.
We're all hoping Panasonic (or Canon, for me) drops something great their next go around. The HMC150 honestly looks like a great DVX100 upgrade, I would really like my next HVX or cam to be another nice step forward and preferably with Pana or Canon flavor.
If Canon and Pana don't deliver, and Scarlet is nowhere to be bought within the next few years I can see the EX-1's popularity growing amongst the low budgeteers that have been ritually requesting the HVX200, thus forcing even ME to switch over. Afterall, for a lot of us it's the primary source of income and how we get great jobs, connects, etc.
It's either that or step up to an HPX500 + Relay setup and at that point and that's not exactly the cheapest camera around (for some of us.)
It's bordering RED TERRITORY once you grab the Relay unit, and with RED ONE's being mass produced I think I would forego an HPX500 + RELAY myself and just snag up a RED body and a Nikon mount, etc.
=\ In short: Pana and Canon? Please give me something that's at least on PAR with the EX-1 and at a lower price point. The rest is just inherent to the brands.
Barry_Green
Moderator
I think people are really confusing things here -- some think that the HVX will have to be at least everything the EX1 is, but they somehow forget that there's a sizable price difference between those products.
If there is an HVX200a, it isn't going to have 1/2" chips and interchangeable lenses! That would be a new model, something like an HVX300 or something. As Timur said, any HVX200a is likely going to be 99% what we already have, with some updates. Just like the DVX100A was to the DVX100, and the DVX100B was to the DVX100A.
If there is an HVX200a, it isn't going to have 1/2" chips and interchangeable lenses! That would be a new model, something like an HVX300 or something. As Timur said, any HVX200a is likely going to be 99% what we already have, with some updates. Just like the DVX100A was to the DVX100, and the DVX100B was to the DVX100A.
Does it count that the HVX200 has been price dropped numerous times? What was the introductory price? Wasn't it like 5999.99? A little more?
Regardless, I agree that the next HVX200 won't be anything but another HVX200 which is why I hope for an HMC200, 250, HVX300 or something like that.
Crossing my fingers for a great run of announcements at NAB.
Regardless, I agree that the next HVX200 won't be anything but another HVX200 which is why I hope for an HMC200, 250, HVX300 or something like that.
Crossing my fingers for a great run of announcements at NAB.
Barry_Green
Moderator
It was $5995, and it is still $5995. The only "price drop" that has happened is the inclusion of the P2 card.
I completely follow you Kholi- I'm in a very similar state of mind.
Barry, I also follow your reasoning for the hvx200a. However, the truth is that the HVX is almost entering its 3rd year in the market. The DVX100a came a year after the DVX100 was released to "address" some issues users had with the original model, as well as capitalize on a CCD change due to a manufacturer change (according to Jan). The DVX100b came 2 years later as the "final revision" of the DVX. The HVX, however, never had a revision, except for the software updates for longer recording P2cards and extra "features", like an hour meter.
Sincerely,seeing the current timeframe and how technology has evolved, as well as how the competition upped their game, I can't see how Panasonic can maintain market share with merely an "a" upgrade to the HVX. Remember, back then, the HVX was indeed 5995. But a P2 card (8gb) was about 2000 USD. To record HD, the camera was way more expensive than 5995. If we compare the current EX1 bundle VS the introduction HVX price bundle with 2x8gb cards, the EX1 is a way cheaper camera- again, due to market development.
In my view, these cameras are direct competitors. If the HVX200a is a mere 1/3ccd upgrade with LCD flip, and other software updates, it is a very big disappointment.
The next camera has to up the game to EX1's level, pure and simple.
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I feel like used HPX500's will be on the market soon. Once RED starts delivering, people who were buying XDCAM F350's and HPX500's will be dumping their "temp" cameras.... Hence eliminating the need for a "new " HVX...
And thats where I come in......
Jk jk jk....
BAck on track...
Yes i think a HVX300 that was MSRP 6999$ with 1/2" 1080P chips, would be great....
And thats where I come in......
Jk jk jk....BAck on track...
Yes i think a HVX300 that was MSRP 6999$ with 1/2" 1080P chips, would be great....
Barry_Green
Moderator
If it was priced the same, I'd agree. But it isn't. It's not in direct competition, it's slotted in below the EX1.
If something was to come out that "upped the game to the EX1's level", that would be a new product, not an HVX200a. That would be an HVX250 or HVX300 or something like that. And I'm not saying that won't happen -- of course they could do something like that. But it wouldn't be an HVX200a. That's all I'm saying.
Panasonic might not update the HVX at all. Or they might introduce half a dozen new models all over the price and performance spectrum. We don't know what they'll do. But I am fairly confident that if they release an HVX200a, it will not be 1/2" with removable lenses, it'll be a modest incremental improvement over the existing HVX200.
Barry I agree with you on this; I also believe the HVX200A will be a modest improvement. That's the problem. Unless Panasonic brings out, say the HVX250 or whatever they call it soon they will find themselfs behind in the sub 10k market.
This market is changing so quickly I can see a 2/3' camera appearing in this market within the next year and a half. Scarlet may not be everything people are speculating but one thing is sure it will match the HVX in many areas; prob not all; I see it as having less features than the HVX but it will more than likely cost less.
The fact that Scarlet is on its way is a testimony to where the market is heading. More competition, more choice, lower prices, improved features.
This market is changing so quickly I can see a 2/3' camera appearing in this market within the next year and a half. Scarlet may not be everything people are speculating but one thing is sure it will match the HVX in many areas; prob not all; I see it as having less features than the HVX but it will more than likely cost less.
The fact that Scarlet is on its way is a testimony to where the market is heading. More competition, more choice, lower prices, improved features.
Barry_Green
Moderator
People keep talking about the "sub 10K" market, but you do realize that an HVX can be bought (including a 16GB card) for HALF that price. Why don't we say it's the king of the "sub-6K" market instead? There's a tremendous amount of room between an HVX's price and 10K. Heck, you could buy TWO HVXs for 10K.
Barry_Green
Moderator
Nobody knows *anything* about the Scarlet. Anything. These are the only things known about Scarlet at ALL:
1) it can fit in a pocket
2) it is termed by the Red company to be "professional"
3) it does not compete with the Red One in any way.
That's it. We don't know if it's $2,000 or $50,000. We don't know if it's 720p, 1080p, 2K, 3K, 4K, anything. We don't know if it's fixed-lens or interchangeable. We don't know the size of the chip, or how many chips. We don't know anything at all about it.
To say that it's going to be in competition with the HVX is relying on extreme levels of guesswork. I have an HVX, I've extensively used the HPX500, and I have a Red One, and I can confidently say that the Red is not in competition with either of those other products.
I expect that the Scarlet will be priced lower than the Red One, and by virtue of it being classified as "pocket" I expect that it will not be in any way in competition with the Red One, or the HVX200, or the EX1, but will be an entirely new and different thing. But we won't actually know anything (other than the three items listed above) until NAB.
Everything is speculation until confirmed. All we can do is observe where things are going and make an educated guess.
But as Bob Dylan said "you dont need to be a weatherman to know which way the wind blows"
You are correct when you say we dont know anything about Scarlet, but taking into account what we do know about Red and what they have achieved we can say they will produce a camera; as I said it may not have all the features of the HVX but will redefine whatever market it is aimed at. This may not be the HVX market, but following on with the same logic it will impact on what is expected from this market.
Sub 6k Market may be more specific I agree, but I think sub 10k is where we will see most of the movement and development in the 1/2 or 2/3 inch image sensor. Now we can argue this is not the HVX market and that may be correct, but the reality is the difference between a 6-10k and 6-20/25K where both the RED One and HPX500 are in reality positioned is great (this price takes into account accessories and lenses)
and where there may be room for greater competition.
I do not have a crystal ball but I have been watching developments and am part of this industry. The speed of development in this market since the introduction of the DVX has been amazing. Since the HVX arrived it has been even faster.
I am only calling it as I see it, I may be wrong but I do feel all development leads to greater expectations and as long as somebody sees the opportunity to make some money it will lead to greater competition and improved features.
But as Bob Dylan said "you dont need to be a weatherman to know which way the wind blows"
You are correct when you say we dont know anything about Scarlet, but taking into account what we do know about Red and what they have achieved we can say they will produce a camera; as I said it may not have all the features of the HVX but will redefine whatever market it is aimed at. This may not be the HVX market, but following on with the same logic it will impact on what is expected from this market.
Sub 6k Market may be more specific I agree, but I think sub 10k is where we will see most of the movement and development in the 1/2 or 2/3 inch image sensor. Now we can argue this is not the HVX market and that may be correct, but the reality is the difference between a 6-10k and 6-20/25K where both the RED One and HPX500 are in reality positioned is great (this price takes into account accessories and lenses)
and where there may be room for greater competition.
I do not have a crystal ball but I have been watching developments and am part of this industry. The speed of development in this market since the introduction of the DVX has been amazing. Since the HVX arrived it has been even faster.
I am only calling it as I see it, I may be wrong but I do feel all development leads to greater expectations and as long as somebody sees the opportunity to make some money it will lead to greater competition and improved features.
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I have to agree with Barry here. The RED one is not a direct competitor to the HVX or even the HPX. We have two of them and they are in a totally different league...yes RED creates beautiful images...but don't expect to do any easy run and gun style.... It seems that projects using the RED require extensive planning. Not to mention a upgrade of your gears as well... Gone are the days of "just grab it and film!" and honestly the current state of the workflow is pretty mediocre..... I honestly don;t believe RED will be a serious competitor until they fix their workflow/audio issue and fix their other shortcomings. Pana and Sony still have time...
Come on, Barry. An HVX, when launched, offered no P2 card whatsoever. it was priced 5995. Each P2 card was at least 1500 dollars. So, in order to be a fully handhealdable, independent from wires, HD device, the camera was in fact 7000+. The card rebates and bundles just came a year or two after the introduction of the camera. You can say you could record HD trough firewire for 5995, but this is certainly not how this camera was conceived to be used.
How about we put it this way: A Sony EX costs, I believe, 6995 with 2x SxS cards, right? How much is each sold individualy? $800? Subtract 1600 from 6995 and you get a 5395 dollars camera. Isn't this in the HVX ballpark? And it can still record trough firewire, I believe (not sure, though.)
EDIT- I'm writting this because, as a Panasonic P2 early adopter (not SD early) I would really be hugelly disappointed if the next camera in the price range would not be at least on par to the Sony EX in therms of dinamic range, Low light performance and DOF. Is this too much to ask for?
EDIT- I'm writting this because, as a Panasonic P2 early adopter (not SD early) I would really be hugelly disappointed if the next camera in the price range would not be at least on par to the Sony EX in therms of dinamic range, Low light performance and DOF. Is this too much to ask for?