ex1 SD solutions and HD delivery options questions

mjdorris

mjdorris

Well-known member
Hi All,

I currently use a borrowed DVX100b for shoots. I'm considering stepping up my game and purchasing an HD camera. Originally I was attracted to the HVX for it's SD and HD capabilities, and the option to work with tape and solid state. As far as I can tell the EX1 doesn't shoot SD. Does anyone having any experience using the Ex1 and down converting for SD delivery? Is it a reasonable idea to shoot in 720p or 1080 and downconvert? I still have clients that ask for SD, but more and more are asking for HD.

Another quick question--what is the typical way that people are delivering HD product? Create a master dvd folder and then take it to a blue ray capable duplicating house? Excuse the noobishness.

Thanks,
Matt
 
The EX1 does not shoot in SD. 720p and 1080p.

It has an SDI-out capability, which would allow you to downconvert to SD. You could always downcovert it in post as well.

Get the HVX. Definitely. It will save you a WORLD of trouble. You can shoot in DVCPRO 50, which is SD but has twice the color information (a true 422 codec.) It shoots to P2 and since it's half the space of DVCPRO HD you could record for twice as long. The HVX shines in HD as well, and seeing that this is not your first prosumer camera...you'll know what you're doing when you film. I think you could make DVCPRO 50 shine.
 
ffaf07 said:
Get the HVX. Definitely. It will save you a WORLD of trouble. You can shoot in DVCPRO 50, which is SD but has twice the color information (a true 422 codec.)

Please describe all the trouble as I have had none with my EX1.


Shooting in 1080i and outputting via sdi either downconverted in the camera or on capture looks great.

I capture 10 bit uncompressed into FCS downconverted with my kona card on ingest and it looks really awesome. it takes very aggressive color correction and holds up fine.



vince
Click to expand...
 
Vince,

Not trying to answer for ffa, but for those who have been shooting with a DVX, going to an HVX is very comfortable. Going to an EX1 may involve more of a learning curve. Also, while you might have a Kona card at the ready for downconversion on ingest, the OP may not. So, in this case, the HVX's in-camera SD capabilities might be a big plus.

--SM
 
gaffney film said:
Please describe all the trouble as I have had none with my EX1.


Shooting in 1080i and outputting via sdi either downconverted in the camera or on capture looks great.

I capture 10 bit uncompressed into FCS downconverted with my kona card on ingest and it looks really awesome. it takes very aggressive color correction and holds up fine.



vince
Click to expand...

I am in no way trying to make this into another EX1 vs. HVX page. Maybe he won't be saving himself a "world" of trouble, but he could shoot directly to a 422 SD codec, and it's a great looking codec. It seems like it would make the workflow easier rather than shooting in 420 and then exporting via SDI.

I'm not really speaking for the buyer though. Just voicing what I thought was a good choice. I hope that in any situation, I never convince someone to buy a product solely based on my post.

Also, moving from a DVX to an HVX would be pretty comfortable, not that he couldn't handle an EX1.



All in all, I don't want to stray from the point to my post --whichever camera he decides on, for whatever technical reasons, it sounds like he knows what he's doing creatively. That's what's important, and I think he'll deliver in that aspect, regardless of his camera choice.
 
i get all that, i just wanted to point out that there's always another way to get what you're after - and maybe future proof yourself for about a month.

v
 
thanks for the many responses! i was hoping to save money and not get a high end card, although i was considering the Matrox MXO. Stepping up to solid state is really taxing because of all the extras that go into it. i'm torn because i love the look that the hvx can produce, but in order to recoup the money i'm spending on this camera i'll need it to perform really well in lowlight. My main concerns are:

a) lowlight performance. i shoot a fair amount of lowlight (weddings, receptions, plays). The HVX is obviously a stellar camera--my concern is that I would be able to rock that on a set, or outdoors, but someplace that i can't control the light is a concern for me.

b) if i don't buy a capture card, and say spend it on a 16gig card, would i encounter any real problems down converting via FCP studio 2? I'm not aware of the on-camera conversion options.

c) unrelated, but do most of you have a blu-ray or hd dvd burner? or do you outsource that stuff?

Thanks again for the replies.
 
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I believe there would have to be 2 critical mass for HD to be standardized.

a) In 2009, all broadcasting will be converted to HD, no more SD programming will be transmitted. I also believe by this year Black Friday, consumer will be bombarded by tons of cheap HD tv.

b) Availability/standardization of cheap HD burner on Personal Computers. Now that Blue Ray is staring to emerged as the winner in HD format war, we hope that the next gen computers will come standard with hd burner and dvd burner.

Finally, When the above (2) happens, cheap HD blueray dvd player will surfaced thus completing the cycle. By then, majority of your customers would want HD.

For your original question, if you get the XDCAM EX, you can either down convert via SDI or you can just down convert HD to SD in post.

Search the forum for the rest of the EX1 vs HVX specs like 4:2:0 vs 4:2:2, TRUE full 1k HD resolution vs pixel shift, CMOS vs CCD .....etc.
 
A little clarification on this HD mandate is in order. Beginning on 2/17/09 analog broadcast must end and be replaced with digital broadcasts. Within the ATSC standards are a bunch of formats. Including 720 x 480 interlaced. It's a broadcast mandate, not a format mandate.

Vince
 
I had the same question re: what are the methods for downconverting because I still have plenty of clients who will stay in SD.
SDI is not much of an option for me generally because it ties up the camera. Is there even any way to get an SDI signal into a laptop without something bulky & expensive like a an AJA I/O box?

Does that only leave downconverting in post as the only option?
Would the footage need to be imported into FCP first as HD then downconverted, or is it possible to do the downconvert while capturing or importing? Also how long a process is the downconvert.

My question really is - how much of a pain in the butt will this process be to a client? Is it worth trying to sell them on the EX for SD?

Will they still get any advantages form the EX's image quality or will it be the same or worse than shooting say HVX @ DVCPro50 or HVX/DVX @ DV quality?

Thanks

Lenny Levy
 
Dxmetal said:
a) In 2009, all broadcasting will be converted to HD, no more SD programming will be transmitted.
Click to expand...
Persistent and inaccurate myth. As gaffney points out, the switch will be from analog to digital, but it has nothing to do with HD. Broadcasters are free to broadcast SD digitally, there is no mandate to go to HD in the USA, now or ever.
 
mjdorris said:
thanks for the many responses! i was hoping to save money and not get a high end card, although i was considering the Matrox MXO. Stepping up to solid state is really taxing because of all the extras that go into it. i'm torn because i love the look that the hvx can produce, but in order to recoup the money i'm spending on this camera i'll need it to perform really well in lowlight. My main concerns are:

a) lowlight performance. i shoot a fair amount of lowlight (weddings, receptions, plays). The HVX is obviously a stellar camera--my concern is that I would be able to rock that on a set, or outdoors, but someplace that i can't control the light is a concern for me.

b) if i don't buy a capture card, and say spend it on a 16gig card, would i encounter any real problems down converting via FCP studio 2? I'm not aware of the on-camera conversion options.

c) unrelated, but do most of you have a blu-ray or hd dvd burner? or do you outsource that stuff?

Thanks again for the replies.
Click to expand...


I feel I can answer a couple of these questions. I shoot a lot of weddings. last year I shot 18 throughout the summer in the UK. Not all of them were in dark 15th century churches but quite a few were. And I struggled BIG TIME with the HVX200. So much so that I got rid. And got an EX1. The difference is massive. Huge, vast.

If you are shooting weddings, the chances are the vicar won' allow you to bring in extra lighting, and to be honest you really don't want to anyway, as a wedding videographer you need to be on your feet and away from the church as quickly as possible to catch up with the couple at the reception. You will no doubt use the ambient light. And in old churches that comes at a premium.

The trouble with the HVX is such conditions is that it fails in its low light capabilities. You need to put the gain up, which makes more grain and makes the image even worse. You get blocking in the dark areas and thequality of the picture can drop below your expectations. In situations where there is plenty of light the HVX200 shines. But not in dim churches.

So I purchased the EX1. I haven't shot a wedding on it yet, but I have taken it into my local 12th century church to test it out and all I can say is the difference between the EX1 and the HVX200 in the same lighting situation ( ambient light) is chalk and cheese. The EX1 makes light! There is no grain. The image is fantastic. And that's with the gain off. The half inch chips of the EX1 really suck the light in and if you are considering buying the camera for weddings, then buy the EX1, and don't consider the HVX200.

Yes, its easy to use the HVX200 after the DVX100. But it's not difficult to learn the EX1 either. In fact I am still learning it but am comfortable now with it in my hands.

OK onto the other point.

It only caprures in HD. But you don't need a high end card to downconvert. Just bring the footage into FCP ( simple proceedure like P2) edit in HD, then output via compressor to SD and into DVDSP.

Couldn't be simpler.

If you are doing weddings, don't buy the 8 Gb cards. Get the 16Gb and pay the difference. A 16Gb card is treated like a dv tape. It lasts 70 mins. If you have two of them you can be constantly filming. I shoot about 5 hours at a typical wedding, but until the SxS cards drop in proce I will make do with 2 and dump to my laptop, format, then reuse. (after checking the footage has gone across OK!)

Then at home I just network the footage over to the Apple and start editing.

And the last point and one I have spent the last week researching. How do you get from DVDSP to Blu-ray? You don't. Because at the moment Blu-ray is not supported on a mac. This is a real big pain in the ass. In fact it is stupid. Apple herald FCP as HD ready, yet fail miserably when it comes to getting all this lovely HD footage onto a disk.

Toast 8 can burn Blu-ray, but you won't have any menues etc. And also, the blue-ray burners out there don't seem to have mac drivers. Whether or not they would run on a generic mac driver I have no idea.

But it doesn't get much better on a PC. Again I have found no way of making a HD dvd going the Sony Vegas route. Sony shout about Blu-ray, yet they haven't come up with a way of burning blu-ray dvd through their own software, Dvd Architect!

Anyway hope that helps.
 
mjdorris heres yet another take.

HVX performance in lowlight isnt great.

You need to shoot longform weddings yet it seems the extra $ to buy 2 16gb cards for either cam may be a stretch.

Right now you are geared up for a tape workflow, as you use it for DVX.

Then seriously my recommendation to you is this.

Get yourself a Canon XHA1 - pretty workable in lowlight, shoots HD to tape using the HDV codec, excellent resolution, a price thats simply great. Just like any tape based camera a drop out is a concern, however, look after it, use the same brand tapes (I prefer pana) and you wont have an issue. Point - you wont get variable frame rates that the ex1 and HVX offer. Is this important to you?

Id take the extra $ left over and get yourself some solid audio to go with the great images. Pro lav set up etc.

And as per above response shoot everything in HD and edit in HD, just output to SD when required. Compressor does an excellent job.

Check out the Canon A1 forum for clips.
 
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mjdorris, do one better and check out Steven Dempsey's comparison Xh-A1 vs Hvx200 at at dvinfo and you'll see for your self if it's worth the difference or not. You may be surprised.
 
I know you could just buy a digital setup box and attach it to your SD TV and still get quality SD tv over the air with your rabbit ear antenna.

The main point is to get HD TV to the consumer's hand so that your customer is able to enjoy HD and perceived your product is of higher wuality and value. Who cares what my local channel 9 is going to transmit their news on.

Barry_Green said:
Persistent and inaccurate myth. As gaffney points out, the switch will be from analog to digital, but it has nothing to do with HD. Broadcasters are free to broadcast SD digitally, there is no mandate to go to HD in the USA, now or ever.
Click to expand...
 
thanks again for all the responses. this is very helpful.

i have been looking at the canon cams, but my goal here is to get a camera that i can shoot short films on (get a nice film-like 24p look) and be able to pay for it with one off videographer gigs.

I'll check out those comparison vids. Thanks!
 
Then you should check out the Xh-A1 for sure. It has a great film look (amazing dof and bokeh).
 
I agree, the A1 is a great buy, especially for this type of event work.

If you need the overcrank and other goodies, it's the HVX200 or the EX1.
The HVX200 does offer 4:2:2 DVCPRO 50 SD.
 
If you go with the Canon A1, plan to spend another $1k on the canon hv20 or hv30 to use as a transfer deck (if you shoot 24p). Unless, you want to use your A1 as a deck and wear out the head.
 
is there a firestore type of device for the EX1? To get 4:2:2 off the Ex1 you'd have to feed right into FCP, correct?
 
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