Used hvx200 Buyers beware,

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Sorry everyone, i've been away for a minute.

I like you all, didn't know about the other hidden hrs meter until I begin to go through all the menus. to get to the menu, you would do the same thing in p2 mode that you do in tape mode. go to other, and you should see the total operating hrs.

Also, if the individuals who originaly was supposed to purchase this cam could pm me I have a couple of questions for you.

Now donn't get me wrong, the cam itself looks to be pristine, but I removed it from the marketplace because I believe in doing good buisness, so if i'm telling potential buyers that this cam has a few hrs on it and i've found the hrs to be in eror, for me to sell at the same price would make my buisness practices as unethical as Cinemascreen.

Some may think this isn't that big of a deal, but if you purchased a car online that had more miles then was advertised, your resale value goes down.

So it was told to me I only wanted a refund because I had buyers remorse, go figure. That doesent make sense when I've bought and sold on this site and when the item purcahsed didn't siut my needs anymore I've never contacted the original seller to asj for a refund I just resold it. this is why the marketplace exist.

below I have placed the link to the actual cam that the seller had up originaly.

http://s264.photobucket.com/albums/ii188/cinemscreen/
 
Got a look at more additional post, and i'd like to address a couple of things.

First, there was a comment about me wanting to pawn the camera back off on the seller do to my findings. If you could look at how much stuff I've bought and resold on here I don't know how one could say that. As a matter of fact there were a couple of people interested in the cam just before I made the discovery, so if I wanted to move the cam so bad why didn't I just drop rthe price by $100 and kept my mouth shut about the hrs as Cinemascreen did and sold the cam. I practice Good buisness ethics, and thats why I pulled the cam down because those were the hrs I posed in my sells thread.

Lets just say for arguments sake the guy missed it. How do you call 120 hrs little usage, while putting a picture of a 3hr meter. You half to admit it all does sound a little suspect.

And to another poster,I very well may be waisting time, but if I do nothing else but get this documented on the paypal files and alert the overall consumer comunity, this process would have served its purpose for me.

It now comes down to principle of matter. I can deal with you being a little off, but 120 hrs off. Do the math.
 
reem12 said:
Now donn't get me wrong, the cam itself looks to be pristine, but I removed it from the marketplace because I believe in doing good buisness, so if i'm telling potential buyers that this cam has a few hrs on it and i've found the hrs to be in eror, for me to sell at the same price would make my buisness practices as unethical as Cinemascreen.
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Unethical? On what planet? Welcome to the free market.

And once again for the cheap seats, what Cinemascreen did was FAR from unethical. In fact, Cinemascreen - do you have anything else for sale? I'm interested.
 
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This whole thread is a bit of an over-reaction if you ask me. 120 hours of time turned on for a camcorder is exactly "practically brand new." He shouldn't have guestimated so low but in the end it doesn't really matter. The price of a used camcorder doesn't change all that much with use. The value isn't going to crash because of 100 hours of use. Brand new commands a little more than a few years old but we're talking hundreds of dollars. To me the difference between a few hours and a hundred is almost irrelevant provided that the camcorder looks brand new and is completely functional which you admit it is.

You still got a good deal and so would anyone who would buy it from you. It sounds to me that you're simply trying to use the hours as an excuse to get your money back - probably to avoid the paypal fees you'll incur in reselling the camera. It doesn't make it right that he underestimated, but in the grand scheme of cameras it's not a major deal and certainly not a reason to trash him openly on the forum. If it was 500 hours that would be different. In the end people would still pay almost $3800 for an 1 year old HVX with 1000 hours if it looked in good condition. It's more about how it was taken care of. Had you know about the low light performance would the extra hours really have mattered? Either way these are the risk you take buying used. If you want to save - this is all part of the deal. If you can't accept the risk you should buy new and then you could simply return the camera to B&H and get your money back.
 
I disagree that 1000 hour camera would go for the same price as a 3 hour camera, based on if it looks like it's in good condition. In my opinion, the low light performance comment has NOTHING to do with buying a used HVX.

120 operational hours is quite a lot of hours for the camera to be on. You said that the original owner was an editor. Maybe all he did was transfer a lot of footage. The car analogy is a little off as well. If there was perhaps an operational meter that showed how many hours the car was ON for, then sure - that'd work. With HD cameras I think that we should post total operational hours as Erik mentioned earlier. I wouldn't be happy if there was 120 hours on the TAPE heads. I'd be downright infuriated.

-Kegan
 
Just to add my opinion for whatever it's worth -

1) With almost every other camera on the market, "hours" means hours on the tape heads. When you look up "hours" in the non-hidden HVX menus, "Hours" means hours on the tape heads. Cinemascreen even provided a picture of where the hours reading came from - you could've asked about "hidden" hours.

2) Noone is sure what the "hidden" hours means. Cinemascreen said in the message you quote that he's an editor, not a shooter. Which means he could easily have racked up 120 hours of camera time just transferring footage... or having the camera turned on and connected to the edit system after transferring footage while, say, having dinner or playing a round of golf. Since other cameras don't track this kind of usage, we don't know what a "low" number of hours is. But from experience and guesswork, I'd guess that 120hours of "powered up" time is equivalent to 10-20 hours of tape time on a dramatic shoot. Not too bad, not worth worrying about.

3) Your sense of ethics should not prevent you from selling the camera to someone else for the same or a higher price - several people here seem to be saying they'd be willing to buy the camera from you with full knowledge of the situation for the price you paid. So, if you can't live with your great deal, put the camera up for sale, listing all the different types of hours, and see what you get. If you can't make your $3800 back, then worry about going after Cinemascreen.

4) In the future, when constructing an argument, don't throw in statements liuke you did about being unhappy with the lowlight performance. It really muddies up your logic and doesn't help you. Pick your issue and stay with it or you open yourself up to the criticism leveled here.

Cheers,
Barry
 
not only shoot something but be happy with your 3 hours , even it was 120 it was like anew one , people are 2 obsesive about hours while the heads could eacily get 1000 with out anyproblem.and 2 get 1000 hours in privet hands take years .
 
You're going to easily sell the camera for $3800 - you're going to lose the 3% in paypal fees that's $114. I think you need to consider that money the rental fee for getting to try out an HVX to see if it would work for you. That's a cheap rental fee. But before you just can it and eat the hundred dollars you should make sure you feel there's no way it could work for you. I think you can work around the low light issue.

I also have shot weddings in the past. We use Sonys the V1, Z1, FX7, & FX1 - the Z1 and FX1 being about a stop faster in low light than the V1 and Z1. All HD cameras suffer from being not as good in low light compared to SD cams. When we went from the PD-150 to the Z1 we also were very worried about low light performance. The PD-150 can practically see in the dark.

However, there are ways to get the HD cams to work. I shoot at 1/30th shutter speed all the time with the sonys and many times I'll go as low as 1/15th. Movement is a little bit affected by 1/15th but 1/30th is hardly noticeable. I've found with the Sony's that +9 on gain still produces a relatively clean image. So combine +9 gain with 1/30th shutter and you've got some better low light performance. Then try and stay on the wide end of your lens. That's f 1.8 instead of f2.8 on the Sonys. Finally get an on camera light. We use a smaller Sony batter powered for close in and have a bigger more powerful bescor (with a shoulder battery) to use for big moments like the entrance at the reception, speeches, first dance, cake cutting, etc. It works well - the people at the reception can actually see what's going on too when we light up the bescor! I try to keep gain to no more than +9 and then I will often push levels much more in post. HDV doesn't like low light encoding so they key is to get as good a shot as you can, but it works. I've shot in some cave-like environments.

I have not compared the low light performance of an HVX 200 with say a FX1, but it's probably not much worse. You just need to use the creative workarounds to get the HD cams to produce. But if you want to shoot HD all of the cameras are going to give you the same problem. Give it a try and then see if you still want to dump your HVX.
 
I just sold my HVX. I sent it out yesterday. I searched every menu to find the total "hours" menu. I never found it. It said 19 tape hours on the heads, but I could not find this "total hours" you speak of. I do my editing from the Firestore, so those hours wouldn't effect my camera hours. When I talked to my buyer, I told him I couldn't find the "total hours" menu, which I couldn't, but I did give the buyer my best guess at how much my camera was used in non-tape mode. If I had used my camera to transfer P2's I'm sure the hours would be much more, but I probably wouldn't have realized that the hours the camera was turned on was registered someplace as actual use.

I tried switching from tape to P2 to try and find "Total Hours" in the menu, but could not.

The main question here should be "How do you get to the total usage menu?"

This would be helpful for buyers and sellers.
 
jcoxshooter said:
Just curious. Did you do a firmware update when you got the camera. The reason I ask is the hour meter on my camera for the p2 side of the camera was part of the firmware update. Which would mean my camera would show 0 hours since I have not ran tape in it. That is if I had not done the update. Again not picking sides just my 2 cents.

Edit: My point is if the firmware was not up to date the only mete would me the meter on the dv side. Until firmware is updated and then you get the meter on the p2 side.
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I just read this post. So there was no hour meter until the last firmware upgrade? I just upgraded the firmware on my camera before I sent it out, after I had looked for "usage". I didn't look after that, and sent it out.

So what you are saying is, my camera is going to say 0 hours of total usage and 19 hours on the heads, when my buyer recieves it?

That is pretty lame on Panasonics part.
 
Just noting that the original selling thread stated:

1. 3 Hours of use via a photograph

2. Practically brand new HVX200

3. Reason for selling - it was purchased for a specific project I was working on, and has seen very little use.

To me indicates that 115 hours is more than "very little use" when coupled with photograph.

I didn't know there were two hours menus?

Are there?
 
Evolve said:
I don't think the meter is running when you're in P2 mode, only when you're in tape mode. Don't quote me, but I'm 99% sure on that.
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We have NEVER used our HVX200 in the tape mode. And there are 83 hours shown in the other functions menu.

So I don't think this statement is accurate.
 
David S. said:
To me indicates that 115 hours is more than "very little use" when coupled with photograph.
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no one really knows what the hidden menu hours even mean. The theory is it shows how long it was turned on. Tape head hours are all that matter. That's the only time anything is actually moving. As far as I know the HVX is the only camera that even has a counter for # of hours turned on.

I mean seriously, what kind of heavy use is the camera getting when it's simply turned on?

All of you guys that think this is such a crazy amount of use should never be buying used equipment. 3 hours of head time and 115 hours of being turned on - that is hardly any use and practically brand new.

I have never ever had any head problems with any of the cameras I've owned no matter how old they were. I wore out the record switch in our original VX-2000 and the camera and heads were still going strong.
 
This from the initial manual:

HOUR METER TAPE
(Camera) (VCR)
Displays the total running time (a 5-digit fi gure per hour) of the cylinder head.

Start the HVX200 in the VTR mode.

Go to camera menu/other function.

You see:

Hours
Operation

The hours shows how many hours are on the tape cylinder. In our case it is 000.
The operation shows how many hours the cam has been on I believe. For us 0083.
 
I know that it is in great shape.

But there is a difference between saying that it has 83 total operation hours on it and selling it on that basis versus saying it is "Practically brand new."

And by your statements Nathan, the only hours that matter are tape hours. We have no hours.

So ours would be "brand new." :)
 
David S. said:
But there is a difference between saying that it has 83 total operation hours on it and selling it on that basis versus saying it is "Practically brand new."
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Provided that the seller knew about the "secret" menu which he didn't. It's not like he said "I have 3 hours of tape use and 5 hours of operation." He never advertised the hours of operation because he didn't (like many people) even know there was a counter. So look at this from his side. He sees 3 hours of use and says "that's practically brand new." And then gets openly trashed on a public forum by a guy who sure sounds to me like he's trying to use the hours of operation as an excuse to get his money back since he's actually upset about the low light performance of the HVX and now after having the chance to test it out - doesn't want it.

I don't know the seller at all, but I've bought and sold plenty of used gear so I understand both sides. There's nothing worse than selling used video gear to someone who wants to get brand new but not pay for it. He did his best to state the condition of the equipment he sold. That's all a seller is supposed to do. That's why it's important to take good pictures of your gear.

And I've got news for all of you guys give me an HVX with 1000 head hours and 2500 hours of operation and I'll get at least $3500 on ebay, so what's the point? It's used gear. If the camera looks clean and the pictures show that someone is going to take the deal.

How about we save the complaints for sellers who take your money and don't give you anything or the guy that sells you "practically brand new" and the camera has three broken switches and makes funny noises.
 
Anyway, Get a Canon, There is no hours meters at all no operating hours too.

You know, I operated my new camera (XHA1) just to test it at least for 20 hous to just get the feel and the manuals or the character and how it performs with it hook up to my monitor. i'm not taping it, I'm only testing it out.

Maybe that is what he did, as he is an editor, he might have tested the camera for maybe 30 days of 4 hours each. Just to get the feel of the camera.

And he only tape 3hours.

molesting it for 100+ hours is kind of o.k to me and he only screw it for 3 hours. so it is pretty much like a virgin . Go shoot something and get cosy with that ***** of yours (HVX I meant).
 
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